[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
I must be missing something here.
A lot of MercuryServer members have recently been talking about the [i]"lies"[/i] in Michael Moore's new film. Without quoting long-winded articles that say very little, could somebody please provide me with a list of lies (ie factual errors) in the film?
Thanks! 8)
The problem is, nobody can :D
[quote=Galapidate]The problem is, nobody can :D[/quote]
Hey ... I don't claim there are definately no lies/inaccuracies in Farenheight 9/11, but if people make the accusation that there are lies in it, or that he "inserts fictional material" into the film, they should at least back up their statements with [b]facts[/b].
If they can't, they're being hyprocrites for accusing Michael Moore of exactly the same thing they're doing.
[quote=delirious][quote=Galapidate]The problem is, nobody can :D[/quote]
Hey ... I don't claim there are definately no lies/inaccuracies in Farenheight 9/11, but if people make the accusation that there are lies in it, or that he "inserts fictional material" into the film, they should at least back up their statements with [b]facts[/b].
If they can't, they're being hyprocrites for accusing Michael Moore of exactly the same thing they're doing.[/quote]
Well, that's the point. They CAN'T backup their accusations that he lies. They just try to tune out what they don't want to hear and even, in cases like this, prevent what they don't want to know from being said in public.
[quote=delirious] Hey ... I don't claim there are definately no lies/inaccuracies in Farenheight 9/11, but if people make the accusation that there are lies in it, or that he "inserts fictional material" into the film, they should at least back up their statements with [b]facts[/b].
If they can't, they're being hyprocrites for accusing Michael Moore of exactly the same thing they're doing.[/quote]
First off. When I said he "inserts fictional matter" which is what I said, into one of his "documentaries" I was referring to his movies, books, and Michael Moore in general and as a whole.
Maybe you should read what I said again here [url]http://www.mercuryserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=32&start=36[/url]
Now, as far as Fahrenheit 9/11 goes, maybe you should read my post on the other thread where I specifically said, "that in this particular film, its not so much that he inserts fictional matter, its that he is twisting the facts. Which, is the case for all his so called "documentaries." And how I said that the facts he does portray in this film are completely rudimentary.
Go to that post again and read what the definition of a documentary is
doc?u?men?ta?ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r) adj.
I always thought of documentaries as presenting facts objectively without editorializing. Or without inserting fictional matter, and why would I think that, because its the definition of the word. In this particular film (9/11), he is "presenting the facts while editorializing". I have enjoyed many of Moore?s films, mainly because they make me laugh, but I also KNOW that they don't fit the definition of a documentary. That is simply a fact my friend.
AND THAT was the only thing I was arguing in the post which you are quoting me on. And I was directing it toward the people that made it seem like we shouldn't think of Moore's films as documentaries. Well Duh. But he still lables them that way. I was IN NO WAY assessing that statement solely to this one particular film, just to Michael Moore as a whole.
[quote=Civic_Zen] doc?u?men?ta?ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r) adj.
I always thought of documentaries as presenting facts objectively without editorializing. Or without inserting fictional matter, and why would I think that, because its the definition of the word. In this particular film (9/11), he is "presenting the facts while editorializing". I have enjoyed many of Moore?s films, mainly because they make me laugh, but I also KNOW that they don't fit the definition of a documentary. That is simply a fact my friend. [/quote]
Compact Oxford English Dictionary [quote] documentary ? adjective 1 [b]consisting of documents and other material providing a factual account. 2 using film, photographs, and sound recordings of real events. [/b] ? noun (pl. documentaries) a documentary film or television or radio programme[/quote]
MSN Encarta Dictionary: [quote]noun (plural doc?u?men?ta?ries) [b]factual movie or TV program: a movie or TV program presenting facts and information[/b], especially about a political, historical, or social issue[/quote]
wordsmyth.net Dictionary:
[quote]Pronunciation
dak yE mehn tE ri
Definition 1. [b]pertaining to, consisting of, or based on written, authoritative information or evidence.[/b][/quote]
Dictionary.com: [quote][b]A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.[/b][/quote]
Cambride dictionary: [quote]noun [C] [b]a film or television or radio programme that gives facts and information about a subject[/b][/quote]
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary [quote]Main Entry: 1doc?u?men?ta?ry Pronunciation: "d?-ky&-'men-t&-rE, -'men-trE Function: adjective 1 : being or consisting of documents : contained or certified in writing <documentary evidence> 2 :[b] of, relating to, or employing documentation in literature or art[/b]; broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE <a documentary film of the war>[/quote]
allwords.com dictionary: [quote][b]a film or television or radio programme presenting real people in real situations.[/b][/quote]
Heinle Newbury Dictionary: [quote]documentary /dkymntri/ n. -ries [b]a film or television program based on facts and historical records[/b]: We saw a television documentary on the Civil War. adj. related to documents: The police have documentary evidence.[/quote]
Infoplease.com Dictionary: [quote]doc?u?men?ta?ry Pronunciation: (dok"yu-men'tu-rE, -trE), [key] ?adj., n., pl. -ries. ?adj.
thefreedictionary.com:
[quote]
Documen?ta`ry
Noun 1. documentary - [b]a film or TV program presenting the facts about a person or event[/b][/quote]
How does Farenheight 9/11 not fit these definitions? or are you the one who chooses the definition everyone else should use?
Look i don't know whether or not there are lies within his footage but there is no doubt more uses some very creative editing.
You know when someone is trying to prove something that is hard to believe, they always keep the camera rolling and don't stop filming so that way no one can accuse them of leaving out important information or doctoring the film.
Well that is how i feel about moore's stuff. I would be interested to see, one long continous unedited video feed about the president and about the Iraq war that showed everything everywhere so that that way i could process the data and make an assessment.
Micheal moore sits on the editing room floor and hacks up tens of thousands of hours of video footage and turns it into a one hour documentary. Since he doesn't use any sort of indiscriminate random sampling to figure out what to include, his documentaries are often bastardized representations of the video population.
Michael moore claims to be covering the entire Iraq war, the Afghanistan war on terror and September 11. When representing these things, does he actually show footage that includes the entire Iraqi and Afghan operation, or does he consistently show the exact same region? Do the responses from the people he interviews seem consistent with the responses offered up by the American population? ETC. No matter how you measure Moore's sample against the actual data within the population, you begin to realize Moore doesn't actually represent the population from which he draws the data. Since moore claims that his documentaries accurately depict the populations from which the are drawn, he is in fact lying. And it wouldn't be very hard to prove it either.
If moore had claimed Fahrenheit 9-11 captures the sentiments of liberal Americans and depicts footage from U.S. warzones during these battles and takes all of President Bush's comments out of context to examine them.....he would be in the clear. But sadly, no one would watch a documentary that is so limited now would they :Honest:
[quote=mylexicon] Michael moore claims to be covering the entire Iraq war, the Afghanistan war on terror and September 11.[/quote]
[b]Where [/b]does Michael Moore claim to be covering [i]"the entire Iraq war, the Afghanistan war on terror and September 11?"[/i]. The premise of your statement is false. He's never claimed that.
You also claimed in [url]http://www.mercuryserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=32[/url] that: [quote] He is trying to convince America that new laws and the elimination of Bush will solve all of our problems[/quote]
I'm still waiting for you to tell me where he claimed that.
Get your facts straight :) :Naughty:
[quote=delirious] I wrote: He is trying to convince America that new laws and the elimination of Bush will solve all of our problems.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me where he claimed that.
Get your facts straight :) :Naughty:[/quote]
This is so pathetic. So you want me to take you by the hand and lead you through this, fine. I'll write you a little Berenstein Bear book about why i wrote that and i'll make it quick::::::
Fahrenheit 9/11 is about getting John Kerry elected......Moore has said so himself. Bowling for Columbine is about trying to get people to pass more gun legislation.
[quote=mylexicon] This is so pathetic. So you want me to take you by the hand and lead you through this, fine. I'll write you a little Berenstein Bear book about why i wrote that and i'll make it quick::::::
Fahrenheit 9/11 is about getting John Kerry elected......Moore has said so himself. Bowling for Columbine is about trying to get people to pass more gun legislation.[/quote]
No, I don't need you to write a book. :roll:
[b]All I'm asking you is for you to back up your assertations with sources[/b]. You allege Michael Moore is saying this and that and I'm asking you for your source. A simple cite/link would be [i]more [/i]than sufficient.
ok, here's one...
In the movie, Moore claims in the days after 9/11, before flights resumed, Bush arranged for Osama Bin Laden's immediate family and other relatives to fly out of the country.
Fact: Warren Clark made the direct order to do so.
That's right, the same Warren Clark that has been bashing the Bush administration in his book and with the 9/11 panel.
Fact: Warren Clark testifed under oath that HE alone made the decision to fly Bin Laden's family out of the country after 9.11....it was his recomendation, and his ultimate decision.
[quote=delirious] [b]All I'm asking you is for you to back up your assertations with sources[/b]. You allege Michael Moore is saying this and that and I'm asking you for your source. A simple cite/link would be [i]more [/i]than sufficient.[/quote]
Sorry, don't feel like playing this game any more. If you don't believe me that's cool, even if i spent time finding the necessary quotes, imo they wouldn't change your opinion.
But i will leave everyone with this:
Fahrenheit 911 Lbs. We're totally looking forward to Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," because, really, the mainstream media coverage of the presidency doesn't quite pander to our preconceptions enough. We hear the film is very controversial. In fact, we hear that it's controversial from Michael Moore himself, who tweaked this aspect of his film's appeal in an ad that ran in last weekend's NYT. At first, we thought it was clever: Bush! Gay! Ha! (Not original, but hilarious.) Then we took a closer look. . . What's controversial here isn't the affair with the president (which we assume is of recent vintage) -- it's Michael Moore's miracle weight loss! Lookit! Compared to that picture from Cannes (on the left)? He's lost half a Michael!
[img]http://www.wonkette.com/images/Bush_likes_bears.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.wonkette.com/images/thinandthinner.jpg[/img]
So now, by "controversy," we are of course referring to how he lost all that weight. Pills? Stomach stapling? Voodoo? Because we know he must have lost it. It's not like Michael Moore would ever manipulate an image to make a political point or anything.
[quote=Jenks]ok, here's one...
In the movie, Moore claims in the days after 9/11, before flights resumed, Bush arranged for Osama Bin Laden's immediate family and other relatives to fly out of the country.
Fact: Warren Clark made the direct order to do so.
That's right, the same Warren Clark that has been bashing the Bush administration in his book and with the 9/11 panel.
Fact: Warren Clark testifed under oath that HE alone made the decision to fly Bin Laden's family out of the country after 9.11....it was his recomendation, and his ultimate decision.[/quote]
Fact: In the movie (in the trailer as well), Michael Moore says "people in government", [b]not Bush[/b], ordered the flight.
[quote=mylexicon][quote=delirious] [b]All I'm asking you is for you to back up your assertations with sources[/b]. You allege Michael Moore is saying this and that and I'm asking you for your source. A simple cite/link would be [i]more [/i]than sufficient.[/quote] Sorry, don't feel like playing this game any more. If you don't believe me that's cool, even if i spent time finding the necessary quotes, imo they wouldn't change your opinion. [/quote]
LOL... not "playing the game" of backing up statements with facts?
Believe me, if you found the quotes, my opinion WOULD change. When I'm corrected or shown to be incorrect (which happens quite often!), I'll [b]gladly [/b]admit to being wrong.
[quote=delirious]Fact: In the movie (in the trailer as well), Michael Moore says "people in government", [b]not Bush[/b], ordered the flight.[/quote]
In a movie that is aimed at tearing down the Bush administration, Moore leads the viewer into believing it was Bush by not directly saying it was in fact Clark.
[quote=delirious]
LOL... not "playing the game" of backing up statements with facts?
Believe me, if you found the quotes, my opinion WOULD change. When I'm corrected or shown to be incorrect (which happens quite often!), I'll [b]gladly [/b]admit to being wrong.[/quote]
Man do you have a job or anything. Seems to me you have a helluva lot of time on your hands. Why don't you try to contribute to this community in other ways beside trying to make us believe what you do. There are no less than 6-7 other forums on this site...you might wanna try one of them out.
[quote=evangelion] Man do you have a job or anything. Seems to me you have a helluva lot of time on your hands. Why don't you try to contribute to this community in other ways beside trying to make us believe what you do. There are no less than 6-7 other forums on this site...you might wanna try one of them out.[/quote]
Yes, I do indeed have a job. A full-time job in the development of telecommunications systems. So no, I don't have a lot of time on my hands and that's why I stick to making a few, short posts per day. I think that if you quickly go through the posts I've made, you'll find that none of them are really pushing some hardcore political agenda.
Thanks for the tip re: checking out the other forums. When I find something to comment on, I definately will :)
Unfortunately the DJing and Producing forum hasn't been all that busy since MS went back online :?
[quote=delirious]
Unfortunately the DJing and Producing forum hasn't been all that busy since MS went back online :?[/quote]
It's because people like you just go in there and read and don't start up topics, create conversation, pose questions, debate, etc.
If you want it to be more active, take part in creating discussion.
;)
One of Michael Moore's lies in the movie:
Truth:
Richard Clarke demanded that private jets fly the Bin laden family out of America after the 9/11 attacks, not Bush.
We can all agree on one thing; The last thing that Moore is looking for is the truth...
Also.
Moore claims in F9/11 that the only reason the US invaded Afghanistan was to build an oil pipeline. :FuckOff: As if Osama bin Laden hiding there, and it being the capital for al Quada had nothing to do with it. :CrackUp:
To this day, that pipeline has not been biult, nor is there any plans and/or contracts which would indicate that one will ever be built.
Trust me, once more people with more political knowledge see this film, Moore will be exposed for many more of these half-truths, and prolific distortians which he so readily adhears to.
[quote=cosmo]One of Michael Moore's lies in the movie:
Download the trailer. In the movie he doesn't say Bush demanded the planes, but the Bush administration (which included Clark)
[quote=jenks] It's because people like you just go in there and read and don't start up topics, create conversation, pose questions, debate, etc.
If you want it to be more active, take part in creating discussion. [/quote]
I think I'll be taking your advice :)
[quote=delirious][quote=cosmo]One of Michael Moore's lies in the movie:
Download the trailer. In the movie he doesn't say Bush demanded the planes, but the Bush administration (which included Clark) [/quote]
Why is it that you only hear what you wanna hear?? Yes, thats exactly what Moore says, but the whole movie is about Bush right?? So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it, will take it that it was Bush's fault.
When in reality, Richard Clark was the SOLE PERSON responsible. That doesn't mean Bush, and it doesn't mean the Bush administarion. It Means Richard Clark and only Richard Clark.
But if Moore would have said that it was Richard Clark and only Richard Clark who issued this order (which would have been the whole truth), his film, or at least this part of it, wouldn't have the effect he wants it too. So, instead, he misleads the viewer to assume that it was Bush's responsibility.
Its just like lexicon said, you need to be walked, hand and foot, through this stuff to grasp it. :Honest: :Tongue: :Rolling:
[quote] Download the trailer. In the movie he doesn't say Bush demanded the planes, but the Bush administration (which included Clark)[/quote]
C'mon delirious. We all know what the purpose of this film is. To bash Bush, not Clarke.
In an interview with The Hill yesterday, Clarke said, ?I take responsibility for it. I don?t think it was a mistake, and I?d do it again.? ?It didn?t get any higher than me,? he said. ?On 9-11, 9-12 and 9-13, many things didn?t get any higher than me. I decided it in consultation with the FBI.?
[quote=delirious] LOL... not "playing the game" of backing up statements with facts?
Believe me, if you found the quotes, my opinion WOULD change. When I'm corrected or shown to be incorrect (which happens quite often!), I'll [b]gladly [/b]admit to being wrong.[/quote]
If you can find prove to me that your opinion would change after i found the required data perhaps i would consider it.
[quote=cosmo] C'mon delirious. We all know what the purpose of this film is. To bash Bush, not Clarke. [/quote]
I know the movie is to "bash Bush" but I was referring to the alegation that Moore said Bush allowed the planes to leave, which he didn't.
[quote=Civic_Zen] Why is it that you only hear what you wanna hear?? Yes, thats exactly what Moore says, but the whole movie is about Bush right?? So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it, will take it that it was Bush's fault. [/quote]
I don't know if the whole movie is right... that's the reason I posted this topic! I personally agree that Moore might mislead some uneducated people but that has nothing to do with the question of whether Michael Moore is lying or not.
[quote=Civic_Zen] If you can find prove to me that your opinion would change after i found the required data perhaps i would consider it.[/quote]
Well just wait, then. I rather debate [i]with[/i] sources.
[quote=delirious] [quote=Civic_Zen] If you can find prove to me that your opinion would change after i found the required data perhaps i would consider it.[/quote]
Well just wait, then. I rather debate [i]with[/i] sources.[/quote]
I wrote that :mrgreen: