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Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

27 durable postsStarted 2012-03-26Latest 2012-04-03
#116479Post 1 of 27

[URL]http://ca.news.yahoo.com/rejecting-obamacare-grave-profound-232716680.html[/URL][URL]http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/president-obama-health-care-law-faces-test-supreme-court-article-1.1050795?localLinksEnabled=false[/URL]This is going to be a big one. Some good quotes from the links above:[quote]

Q:) In what way could the individual mandate by judged "unconstitutional"?

A:) The challengers to the reform say that never before has the government forced people to buy a product. We're not forcing you to buy a product. Health care is something all Americans consume, and you don't know when you're going to consume it. You could get struck by a bus, you could have a heart attack and the like. And if you don't have health insurance, then you show up at the emergency room. The doctors are under orders to treat you -- as any Western, any civilized society would do. And who pays for that? Well, ordinary Americans pay for that. They're the ones who have to pick up the tab for those who don't have insurance. We are not regulating what people buy, we're regulating how people finance it.

Q:) What are the possible outcomes?

A:) The two main outcomes that one can predict -- the Supreme Court strikes down the individual mandate as unconstitutional because it's unprecedented or it upholds it and says it is part of Congress power over commerce and over taxation. The latter is far more likely because it is such a grave thing for unelected judges to take a decision of such a magnitude for American people. I expect the Supreme Court's ruling at the end of its current term, June 30.I wouldn't be surprised if everyone else was surprised in this case, and the court didn't reach a standard 5-to-4 judgment with the five Republican justices -- those nominated by Republican presidents on one side, and the four nominated by Democratic presidents on the other.

Q:) Why is there such visceral opposition to this law among Americans?

A:) Whenever you have landmark legislation, people are afraid of change. That's not surprising. And this is something that is going to dramatically change insurance markets, health care markets, and you know, there's a lot of people who can be worried about that and who, if they don't like the law, should vote against those who voted for it. Vote against President Obama, or vote against the members of Congress. What I think is not appropriate is to take that policy debate and put it in front of the Supreme Court of the United States. If they don't like the law, there's an easy vote and that's in November.[/quote]

[quote]Although the court is divided along sharp ideological lines, it’s not clear how the justices will rule. The court’s aura of legitimacy has taken a beating in recent years and a Bloomberg News poll found 75% of Americans expect the justices to rule based on politics, not the law.The court has one possible out: On Monday, they will consider whether an arcane 1867 federal law requires them to hold off on making any decision until after 2015, when the first fines for failing to get coverage kick in.[/quote]

#1601575Post 2 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Those are not "good" comments. Just more nanny statist BS that the govt. is the end solution for all that ails us. What the comments miss is there is no limit to what the govt. can mandate that one buys from a private entity if this is allowed to stand, all in the name of kommerce.

Another negative against this catastrophe is its for the plebes. The aristocracy is exempt.

#1601578Post 3 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1030424]Those are not "good" comments. Just more nanny statist BS that the govt. is the end solution for all that ails us. What the comments miss is there is no limit to what the govt. can mandate that one buys from a private entity if this is allowed to stand, all in the name of kommerce.

Another negative against this catastrophe is its for the plebes. The aristocracy is exempt.[/QUOTE]

I'm wondering why this works in most of Europe then and I haven't heard of any mandates that they have to buy X lbs of vegetables each month to keep healthy. Let me know if I've just missed that story though.

#1601579Post 4 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Also I think this sums up the point well, from above:

[quote]A: The challengers to the reform say that never before has the government forced people to buy a product. We're not forcing you to buy a product. Health care is something all Americans consume, and you don't know when you're going to consume it. You could get struck by a bus, you could have a heart attack and the like. And if you don't have health insurance, then you show up at the emergency room. The doctors are under orders to treat you -- as any Western, any civilized society would do. And who pays for that? Well, ordinary Americans pay for that. They're the ones who have to pick up the tab for those who don't have insurance. We are not regulating what people buy, we're regulating how people finance it.[/quote]

#1601584Post 5 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1030431]A: The challengers to the reform say that never before has the government forced people to buy a product. We're not forcing you to buy a product. Health care is something all Americans consume, and you don't know when you're going to consume it. You could get struck by a bus, you could have a heart attack and the like. And if you don't have health insurance, then you show up at the emergency room. The doctors are under orders to treat you -- as any Western, any civilized society would do. And who pays for that? Well, ordinary Americans pay for that. They're the ones who have to pick up the tab for those who don't have insurance. We are not regulating what people buy, we're regulating how people finance it.[/QUOTE]

precisely

#1601603Post 6 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[url]http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/rejad/i_have_lived_in_two_countries_one_has_what_you/[/url]

;)

#1601604Post 7 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Heres a good quote from that thread on how busted our system is right now:

Here is an interesting fact, the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_-Healthcare_spending_as%_GDP.png"]US is number one in spending money on healthcare relative to their GDP[/URL]. It just turns out that your system if so corrupt and broken that it's citizens don't get anything back from that spending.

Also relevant:

Yep, we have a for profit system. Many people get paid in between doctor and patient. I am sad to say that 'Obamacare' while nice in theory does not stop or even address the high cost of healthcare or the fact that the CEOs of the health insurance companies rake in MILLIONS of dollars. Health care and education should NOT be for profit.

#1601606Post 8 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[URL="http://althouse.blogspot.com/2012/03/big-week-of-obamacare-oral-arguments.html"][/URL]Obama's argument: It's not a tax whenever we don't want it to be, and it is when we do.

#1601608Post 9 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Fuck sake.

The BMV works just fine. Let's handover 1/6th of the economy to the federal government. lol

#1601609Post 10 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1030465]Fuck sake.

The BMV works just fine. Let's handover 1/6th of the economy to the federal government. lol[/QUOTE]

Since private healthcare is so cheap and affordable right now it should stay as is right?

#1601687Post 11 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1030465]Fuck sake.

The BMV works just fine. Let's handover 1/6th of the economy to the federal government. lol[/QUOTE]

you do realize almost the entire bill is done through the private sector right?

#1601725Post 12 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

The private sector is being manhandled by the 2000 pages of regulations, and you are ultimately at the whim of a single bureaucracy.

#1601735Post 13 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=dre4;1030556]you do realize almost the entire bill is done through the private sector right?[/QUOTE]

location: greece

my response: lol

#1601737Post 14 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1030466]Since private healthcare is so cheap and affordable right now it should stay as is right?[/QUOTE]

The CBO estimated that the average primium for a single non-group insurance policy would be roughly $5,800 in 2016. A young healthy individual targeted by this behemoth mandate consumes $854, on average, in health costs each year. This effectively means that this mandate is specifically a ruse to force young individuals to subsidize the insurance companies for the health care costs of those who use spend exponentially more in health care costs each year. Worse, now people, especially the younger generation to be enslaved to the healthcare needs of older folks who generally require vastly more use of hospitals (of which they are already recieving benefits under different federal entitlement programs as it is).

There are millions of Americans who do not own cell phones. Should anyone be forced to subsidize the federal government in paying for millions of cell phones just so these unconnected individuals have the immediate ability to call for emergency services?

Your problem will always be that if you say the government can force you to buy any private market good, you have no line to say where such demands begin an end.

You've clearly never read anything on jurisprudential history or, for that matter, the history of the nature of government and its relationship to man. You cannot draw a line where the Commerce Clause is limited.

Personally, of all the things I should find amusing, the one point I find most hilarious is that those who are in the Occutard movement, the one decrying the power of corporations, are effectively demanding that the Federal Government and Big Insurance get in bed together while politicians apply the lubrication to the appropriate parts.

#1601743Post 15 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Yah we should just keep the broken system in place as is. ^I can tell by reading your post that you've read a lot of books, but have you worked in healthcare legislation (my sister has) or have you sold insurance (i have). The system is f*cked.

#1601785Post 16 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=floridaorange;1030628]Yah we should just keep the broken system in place as is. ^I can tell by reading your post that you've read a lot of books, but have you worked in healthcare legislation (my sister has) or have you sold insurance (i have). The system is f*cked.[/QUOTE]

It's fucked? Right. It's fucked alright. Because the government must put its grubby mitts all over that industry. Like it does every other fucking industry.

I don't need to hawk insurance to folks or spend weeks taking orders from a boss on how to craft wording to see the effects.

Or do it?

Do I need to be a soldier to stand against or for war?

No.

And the solution is NOT to hand it over to a bureaucratic nightmare. Because that's exactly what will happen. You seem to think things will work handy dandy like it does in the homogenous european countries, but guess what, there is going to be a very LONG period of bloodletting where LOTS of people get fucked over. And that's the [I]best case scenario for this money pit.[/I]

we can't even fund social security for another decade ffs. what makes you think [I]this is ideal[/I].

fucking lol.

#1601786Post 17 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

From the sounds of the debate today this sounds like it is going to get shot down....but you never know, there is going to be a lot of internal debating over the next 3 months.

Good job America on not doing shit to get anything actually fixed. Good thing I make enough money and shouldn't give a shit, but we are still going to be the huge lol to most of Europe when they see how retarded we are, since even keeping things the way we are now is still a shitpile.

#1601884Post 18 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Mariner, one reason we can't fund SS is because the govt. has regularly stolen from the fund...and they want to create another money pit that we're supposed to expect them to be financial stewards over? Right.

#1601897Post 19 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

^I'm not sure about 'stolen' per se.

It seems to me that they think there will be infinite growth in population, value, and wealth creation. So, they're not really stealing as a factual matter, they're simply kicking the can down the road.

But they are stealing from future generations (and even the present teenagers who, if they are even lucky enough to have a jarb, will be putting money into this benefits regime without probably getting any benefit from it down the road).

#1601899Post 20 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1030672]From the sounds of the debate today this sounds like it is going to get shot down....but you never know, there is going to be a lot of internal debating over the next 3 months.

Good job America on not doing shit to get anything actually fixed. Good thing I make enough money and shouldn't give a shit, but we are still going to be the huge lol to most of Europe when they see how retarded we are, since even keeping things the way we are now is still a shitpile.[/QUOTE]

The last major economic legislation that was shot down by SCOTUS was what, in the 1930's or something? It's very possible they could rule the mandate clause unconstitutional but find that this clause is severable from the rest of it, effectively leaving a legislative largesse without a funding mechanism. Personally, this would be very funny as an outcome.

Europe is not in any position to laugh.

Maybe we should start a whole new thread about the future of Europe?

#1602050Post 21 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

The US 'healthcare' system is so messed up its quite incredible.

It only works if you have lots of money and are well.

The children's hospitals - that do truly amazing things to help children survive and recover - only exist due to Millions that are donated every year.

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/opinion/barnes-health-care-reform/index.html?hpt=hp_t2[/url]

#1602106Post 22 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1030801]^I'm not sure about 'stolen' per se.

It seems to me that they think there will be infinite growth in population, value, and wealth creation. So, they're not really stealing as a factual matter, they're simply kicking the can down the road.

But they are stealing from future generations (and even the present teenagers who, if they are even lucky enough to have a jarb, will be putting money into this benefits regime without probably getting any benefit from it down the road).[/QUOTE] Right, it just has the same effect. That's basically how this new law was written, and it's how the CBO estimates costs, based on growth that may or may not come.

#1602416Post 23 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Has anyone actually looked at the numbers?

[video=youtube;ZoFsaVkL6HM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZoFsaVkL6HM#![/video]

More so is this a skit?

#1606197Post 24 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

crickets

Nothing should come as a surprise anymore. It's astonishing to hear that even with everyone paying into the system, that it will prove once again to be nothing but a money pit. Some here are still going ape for this bureaucratic, liberty-stifling nightmare.

#1606199Post 25 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1032012]crickets[/QUOTE]

Just Politics in general.

#1606202Post 26 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

Yes, but why would skyrocketing costs associated with a bill that is 2700 pages long come as any surprise?

Let's hear what the GAO says.

#1606203Post 27 of 27

Re: Supreme Court to weigh in on Obamacare

You think a big bill such as that in Washington is supposed to be the size of an issue of Newsweek? Red herring....

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