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Forums / General Yakkity Yak

MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

32 durable postsStarted 2007-07-12Latest 2007-07-16
#43989Post 1 of 32

[QUOTE]MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more. A landmark decision yesterday will cost nightclubs and dance party promoters ? and maybe punters, at the end of the line ? millions of dollars a year.

The Copyright Tribunal yesterday sided with artists to approve an application by the Phonographic Performance Company for an increase in music licence fees paid to artists and record labels by nightclub venues and dance parties.

It lifted rates for recordings played in nightclubs from seven cents per person a night to $1.05 per person. The dance party rate rises from 20 cents to $3.07 per person.

The nightclub industry fears the increase will send many clubs broke.

Clubs Australia executive Anthony Ball said that it could even make dance parties too expensive to run for some operators.

"The increase from (almost) eight cents per person to $1.05 ? is astronomical, it's over 1000 per cent," Mr Ball said.

"It will see clubs that provide discos and dance nights withdraw their services in suburban and regional parts of the country. They might just decide it's all too expensive."

Likewise the Australian Hotel Association. "We're a bit stunned by the size of the increase," said the director of national affairs, Bill Healey. "It will be very difficult for some to stay in business, but it might open the door for some live music."

Not surprisingly, musicians took the opposite view, hailing the decision.

Lindy Morrison, the former drummer of the Go-Betweens, who is also a Phonographic Performance Company board member, was elated with the decision. The work of recording artists had been "subsidising" the revenues of nightclubs for too long, she said.

"As an older artist, receiving those cheques becomes very important."

Dean Cherny, a DJ with Melbourne band Dirty Laundry, agrees with the principle, but wonders about the practice. He expects the increase will particularly affect smaller bar owners who do not charge entry. He points out that clubs work on cash, so "if there's a fixed cost, then people are going to be far less likely to declare".

Phonographic Performance Company chief executive Stephen Peach said it was "highly unlikely" to send any clubs broke. "What we've got to keep in mind is that number is less than half the price of checking a coat, it's probably 20 per cent of the price of a drink.

"The majority of artists at the seven-cent rate would be earning less than a couple of hundred dollars a year from nightclubs. At this sort of rate, no one is going to be retiring or buying a holiday house ? it's going to get them more towards getting a reasonable income."

Phonographic company board member Paul Christie, who was Mondo Rock's bass player, said: "Artists are entitled to a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and this will go some way towards compensating us for our creative output."

But Dror Erez, who runs The Prince in St Kilda, was flabbergasted by the 14-fold increase in licence fees.

"The CEOs of the record companies will be sharing this money. Most of the music we play is from overseas, and I bet those artists don't see a cent," he said.

After operating costs, the Phonographic Performance Company distributes half the money to record labels and the other half to Australian artists.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/latest-club-hit-doofdoof-kerching/2007/07/10/1183833519305.html?s_cid=rss_age"]Source[/URL]

#888846Post 2 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

This is shocking. I've read the Decision pdf and it's a joke!! They hired a consulting Company who ran 7 focus groups and managed to come up with fees that will put half our dance community out of business. Home nightclub in Sydney would have to pay $480.000 per year!!!!!! Licence fes are charged on Venue capacity. There was no research done in Melbourne which is an extremely important part of the industry and operates quite differently to, say, Sydney!!

Artists would get next to nothing !! Fees would only be paid to artists on the Aria Club lists and they have to be registered, which pretty well cuts out most of our producers. These fees will be going to big records companies, gee ain't that a surprise!!! and for an extra layer of bureaucracy ! Very, very angry:evil: btw Don't see the mention of dance party promoters fees going from 20c to over $3.00 per head If this had been in place a couple of months ago the Darkbeat/Sunny guys probably couldn't have bought Hernan out!! I'm scared to think what will happen in the future!!

#888855Post 3 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

^^^ What she said. I'll bet that at least 90% of the music I listen to isn't a member of ARIA, meaning they won't see a single cent out of this (or any royalty scheme ARIA have in place), but the fat cats who look after Madonna, Ricky Martin, etc. will get the money earned from the clubs :(

#888859Post 4 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

So it's selective lawmaking again. Nice going, if it ain't hard enough for non-mainstream artists already we're gonna make it even harder for them to surface. When is this going to stop, this plain 'milking' of the consumer?

Same thing in holland, they're now extremely active in looking for ways to extort more money out of you for listening to music. The day that we'll have to pick our own drums up and beat them ourselves to listen to any music are coming closer methinks...

#888861Post 5 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

this money grabbing is getting out of control. problem is that we cant do shit!.

#888864Post 6 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

Bring back the illegal warehouse parties! ;)

#888884Post 7 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

[quote=feather;507998]Bring back the illegal warehouse parties! ;)[/quote]

sounds good to me. This decision is utterly retarted. Leave it to the gov't to screw up something else.

#888894Post 8 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

umm, according to that, it seems our surcharge will only be $3 more... that isn't that bad. $3 more per ticket is better than shutting down clubs.

#888925Post 9 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

I don't give a damn about all these developments. Underground will always survive and find a new way to provide something for free or at least for a proportional price to people. Question is how legal it will be. :mrgreen: In the 90ties it was normal to go to clubs and pay 5 bucks at the entrance and 2 bucks for a beer. Disadvantage was that the clubs were shot down very quickly sometimes....in worst case at the opening party while you were dancing and sometimes a week later because of missing security items or one of the other zillion rules that apply to club owners/party managers. Strange is we have a boat load of uncleared murder, rapist and violence cases but at least here in Germany the government's little helpers are after everybody's asses like Satan after Souls as soon as it is about a party. Good thing was as soon as the club was closed, a new location was found in under a week so the party always continued. :)

#888944Post 10 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

This is soo messed up for the Australian dance music scene. Looks to me like that law is passed to help the rich already get richer with their shitty music.

#888946Post 11 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

Yeah...I'm all for illegal shit again if this goes thru. Got the same thing happening here with the poleez cracking down on parties al the time while big shot criminals get off with 1 year of jail for the most lousy charges.

Heard last week that every month the same amount of people dies from alcohol intoxication as people die from drug abuse in one whole year. WTF...politicians seem to have a sense of specifically not getting their priorities congruent with reality.

#888968Post 12 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

bummer.

#888971Post 13 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

Is this just an Aussie thing? I wasnt aware that clubs had to pay royalties for the music that is being played generally by a foriegn DJ. Seems like a liquor or gas tax...shitty news.

#888990Post 14 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

^yes technically clubs here in the US are supposed to pay public performance fees as well (though it's on a per song basis).

Going after clubs has always been a popular political path to take as most people who no longer have any fun in their lives that isn't dictated by this imaginary box that we're all supposed to eventually fit into (you know the one where you learn to serve your employer's needs, get married, have 2-3 kids and watch your entire life only revolve around family and work, aka "becoming a useful member of society" ;) ) love going after those who still do have fun. :roll:

#888996Post 15 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

[quote=rubyraks;508155]^yes technically clubs here in the US are supposed to pay public performance fees as well (though it's on a per song basis).[/quote]

This is all news to me. So technically.....how does tracks from a DJ's set get counted up and how are royalty fees charged? The club doesnt know how many tracks will be in a set, so do they then pay a lump sum? What happens when you have cut and paste masters like Hawtin who could cut a track up to the point that it is no longer the original copyrighted track. How could fees be assessed to non-copyrighted material?

#889002Post 16 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

Like I said "technically" they have to pay them, but they don't and I've yet to hear of it being prosecuted in the US. ;)

#889019Post 17 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

[quote=jarble187;508163]What happens when you have cut and paste masters like Hawtin who could cut a track up to the point that it is no longer the original copyrighted track.[/quote]

Now you're getting into a question of ethics. Even though you wouldn't be able to know where it came from just by listening because of how much he twisted it, you should still give credit to the original artist.

Perfect example is Trafik - Your Light (Chable`s Return of the 3am Drop). I mean phuck! There's no way in hell you can tell it's Trafik but still gives credit.

#889055Post 18 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

[QUOTE=Garrick;508037]umm, according to that, it seems our surcharge will only be $3 more... that isn't that bad. $3 more per ticket is better than shutting down clubs.[/QUOTE] It's going from 20c to $3 !!!!! That fee is the fee for promoters of dance parties , one off events . The fee that will shut clubs down is the one going from 7c to $1 . Every club will have to pay that amount per head based on the clubs capacity, not on actual heads through the door !!! Some of the smaller clubs with a five hundred capacity will have to come up with $500 every single night they open and before they get one person through the door.!! They have a few nights where they only have 100 - 200 people, what do you think will happen??? And for what!! Our Australian artists won't be better off !!! Apparently there is no agreement with American artists either, so guess who gets the momey. Big record companies and the bureaurocratic deparment putting up the proposal. !!! The fee has been rising in line with the consumer pricelist since it has been brought in.

This is essentially a way to guarantee the income stream for the record companies. Instead of coming into the 21st century with their business practices , they have loaded up the lawyers and are getting legislators to do their dirty work for them. !! Don't compete!! Get the competion shut down!! Or in our case, just collect more money from the industry. I'm assuming similar attitudes apply to music worldwide, an awful lot of people are there for the music, not the money. We have some incredibly talented people who won't have anywhere to play, or any reason to produce. :(

#889056Post 19 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

[QUOTE=jarble187;508163]This is all news to me. So technically.....how does tracks from a DJ's set get counted up and how are royalty fees charged? The club doesnt know how many tracks will be in a set, so do they then pay a lump sum? What happens when you have cut and paste masters like Hawtin who could cut a track up to the point that it is no longer the original copyrighted track. How could fees be assessed to non-copyrighted material?[/QUOTE] All these questions tell us why our artists aren't going to get anything, !!!!!!! By charging an all up licence fee they get their money but it's obviously too hard to work out what the artist should get. On top of that the artist has to be registered with the relevant department and has to have their tune[s] on the Aria charts before they get a cent. The stuff that makes it to the Aria charts is the cheesy pop. !!

#889061Post 20 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

This is the current Dance Chart.

09/07/2007 B TW LW TI HP Title Artist Accred.* Company 1 1 5 1 DESTINATION CALABRIA Alex Gaudino Feat. Crystal Waters MOS/EMI 2 2 9 2 UFO Sneaky Sound System WHA/MGM 3 3 8 3 THE CREEPS Camille Jones vs Fedde Le Grand MOS/EMI 4 4 16 1 THE OTHERS TV Rock vs. Dukes Of Windsor SBME 5 5 16 1 WHAT GOES AROUND...COMES AROUND Justin Timberlake

PDR/UMA 11 13 48 5 I LOVE IT Sneaky Sound System WHA/MGM 12 12 3 10 FEELS LIKE HOME Meck Feat. Dino HUS/EMI 13 15 32 9 EVERYTIME WE TOUCH Cascada CSR/MRA 14 11 2 11 STOP ME Mark Ronson feat. Daniel Merriweather COL/SBME 15 14 10 6 GET DOWN Groove Armada Feat. Stush JVE/SBME 16 20 69 1 FLAUNT IT TV Rock Feat. Seany B

2 SBME 17 16 8 9 BEWARE OF THE DOG Jamelia CAP/EMI 18 17 41 1 CRAZY Gnarls Barkley

Any comments!!

#889090Post 21 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

I'm quite surprised that Australia has done this on its own iniative?? It's always been the RIAA harrassing people and putting pressure on other organizations. Let's hope the rest of the world doesn't take follow Australia's suit.

#889109Post 22 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

^^^ That is an interesting comment, The system has been in place for years . It would be interesting to know who actually funded the consulting group. Btw the focus groups were on "willingness to pay" It could be that this has been done here first because we already had the system, they only needed to increase the fees.

#889116Post 23 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

I know Singapore has such a system too and it applies to radio stations as well as clubs. And as someone else mentioned, there's such a system in America too. Whether anyone actually goes along with it is debatable.

I might've missed out something in the original article, but how to the authorities plan to track and verify the music being played every weekend? The system is inherently a logistical nightmare which is why (from the little I know), it is not easily nor commonly enforced.

#889128Post 24 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

Playlists from Djs compared to Aria charts and it will be a nightmare. [url]http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22053197-2,00.html[/url]

#889129Post 25 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

My bad, it's an entirely different system. Australia goes by a per person charge.

#889133Post 26 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

nonsense. wtf. i hate big fat ass industry people. silly rich people. this is so wrong for independent non-mainstream labels, as the clubs is an important point of showcasing their music. if clubs close, there would be less showcasing...

#889134Post 27 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

too bad for australians. i would gladly pay the fee, if im sure it goes to the original creator, not to some twisted f***d up wanna be madonna

#889139Post 28 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

[QUOTE=feather;508312]My bad, it's an entirely different system. Australia goes by a per person charge.[/QUOTE] I said that :D

#889148Post 29 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

It would seem a DJ not employed by the club would have to pays his own fees,since he is self-employed? non of this really makes any sense.... who's counting anyway

#889605Post 30 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

So is it saying that with this new law it will cost the clubs about $3 more per person to host an event to cover licensing fees for the music? How do they know what I dj will play in the night to charge this? Or is this only if they broadcast the event?

#889610Post 31 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

Nevermind...I went directly to the ppca's website for clarification

[quote] [FONT=arial][COLOR=White][B]Message for Nightclub and Dance Party Operators

[/B][/COLOR][/FONT][FONT=times new roman][COLOR=White][FONT=arial]On 10 July 2007, the Copyright Tribunal handed down its decision in relation to the PPCA’s proposed nightclub and dance party licensing schemes. [/FONT][URL="http://www.ppca.com.au/documents/1235809_1_CopyrightTribunalDecision.pdf"][FONT=arial]Click here to view the Copyright Tribunal’s judgment[/FONT][FONT=arial].[/FONT][/URL][FONT=arial] With respect to nightclubs, a rate of $1.05 has been set for each person per night of operation, to be calculated on the basis of the venue’s capacity. Further, for dances and dance parties, the Copyright Tribunal adjusted the rate to $3.07 for each person that attends each event. A hearing has been scheduled for 27July 2007 in which more detailed provisions for the implementation of the new schemes will be considered by the Tribunal. Once this hearing has taken place, PPCA will publish further details on this website. [/FONT][FONT=arial]Please note that there will be no changes to the tariffs before 1 August 2007.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][FONT=arial][COLOR=White]Should you have any further questions about the new changes, please contact PPCA on (02) 8569 1100.[/COLOR][/FONT][/quote][URL]http://www.ppca.com.au/messagefornightclubsanddancepartyoperators.htm[/URL]

#889615Post 32 of 32

Re: MUSIC to dance to is about to cost more.

^^^ I believe I said all that as well :D I actually read the 76 page pdf . Here is a link to Australian forums.

[url]http://www.inthemix.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=201331[/url]

I'm not sure what is covered.

So some facts

Copyright information would be gathered by tracklists from Djs. These would be compared to Aria Club Charts.

No copyright fees would be paid to copyright holders who were 1. not registered with with PPCA, 2. whose tunes are not on the Aria Club chart.

Re international apparently we don't have a copyright agreement with the USA so that knocks out another lot.

Distribution . After administrative costs the balance would be divided between Record Companies and copyright holders.

It doesn't take much to realise that there would be very little actually distributed to the people who make the music we love!!

These rules have actually been in place for years and the fees have been rising according to the the CPI . They were never good law but because the amounts involved weren't debiliating nothing was done. We should learn from this !!!!They were pretty well ignored as far as anyone submitting tracklists as well. One of the reasons for the massive increases were to allow the PPCA to police it better. So now we still have a shit system but the we are really, really going to pay for that shit system to be enforced!!

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