[ms] · Est. May 2002

Music madethis place,we just kept itgoing...

One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.

01PulsePosts · shares · activity 02PeopleIdentity · relationships · history 03CommunitiesGroups · forums · events 04Music + MediaListen · discover · discuss

Forums / General Yakkity Yak

Save Internet Radio, Today: Internet Radio Day of Silence

37 durable postsStarted 2007-03-04Latest 2007-06-27

#38740Post 1 of 372007-03-04

Well this is going to have a [B]HUGE[/B] impact on our community :evil: :evil:

[quote]This entry was posted on Friday, March 2nd, 2007 at 11:04 pm

If the [URL="http://www.riaa.com/"]RIAA[/URL] and [URL="http://www.soundexchange.com/"]SoundExchange[/URL] get their way, independent webcasting / Internet radio will soon cease to exist.

Why? Earlier today, the [URL="http://www.loc.gov/crb/"]Copyright Royalty Board[/URL], the group overseeing statutory licensing for US-based internet radio stations, [URL="http://www.kurthanson.com/archive/news/030207/index.shtml"]announced[/URL] the new royalty rates for streaming radio performance rights. The board rejected the arguments made by webcasters and instead chose to adopt the proposal put forth by industry-backed SoundExchange, a royalty fee collection agency created by the RIAA.

The new rates are based on �performances� of songs. A �performance� is defined as one song being streamed to a single listener. In other words, a station with 1000 listeners is charged for 1000 performances of each song it broadcasts.

Further, the new rates, just announced today, are retroactive to 2006, and increase rapidly each year. The rates per performance are as follows:

$0.0008 in 2006 $0.0011 in 2007 $0.0014 in 2008 $0.0018 in 2009

At first glance, those seem like fairly small numbers: eight ten-thousandths of a dollar, eleven ten-thousandths of a dollar, and so on. When you actually do the math, however, you see the truth revealed. The average radio station plays 16 songs in an hour. Under this system, that would be equivalent to 16 performances.

0.0011 x 16 = 0.0176

Still a fairly small number - under two cents. But now assume this station has 1000 listeners. That means that, in one hour, the station would be billed for 16,000 performances.

0.0011 x 16000 = 17.60

That�s $17.60 an hour. Now we�re starting to see how expensive this truly is. Multiply that by 24 hours a day.

17.60 * 24 = 422.40

$422.40 a day. But there�s 365 days in a year.

422.40 * 365 = 154176

$154,176 for the year in performance royalties alone for a station with 1000 listeners. And that�s just for 2007: it gets even worse. In 2008, the cost rises to $193,536 for the year. In 2009, it goes up to $248,832. Even for a much smaller station, the royalties owed are huge.

Of course, these figures don�t include the other set of rights that Internet radio stations are required to purchase, which must be licensed separately from an agency like [URL="http://www.sesac.com/"]SESAC[/URL] or [URL="http://www.ascap.com/"]ASCAP[/URL], or the cost of bandwidth and server capacity. When you add all these costs together, you can easily see why nobody, save perhaps a megacorporation like AOL or Yahoo, could afford to pay these rates.

But wait - what�s this? The new rates apply retroactively to the beginning of 2006. In other words, someone who has been happily (and legally) running their small internet radio station for the past few years is suddenly going to be hit with possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional royalties owed. These bills could easily cause a small, independent broadcaster (and his family) to go bankrupt.

Meanwhile, over-the-air radio stations are still not required to pay one dime to the record industry for public performance rights from SoundExchange or an equivalent group. They only need to pay the far more reasonable fees of BMI, ASCAP, and/or SESAC. This reads like another tactic by the recording industry and corporate powers to exert control over anyone involved with music and an attempt to destroy independent broadcasting.

Whether you don�t want to see your favorite internet radio station go off the air, whether you just hate the RIAA, whatever the reason: please, help us get this senseless, greedy policy designed to do nothing but line the pockets of the record industry overturned. Write to, or better yet call, your representative, your senators, and the Copyright Royalty Board. Tell your friends and family, write on your blog, digg this - help get the word out and help to Save Internet Radio!

If you are a webcaster, we want to hear from you! How will this affect your station? What do you plan on doing? Drop us a line at [EMAIL="feedback@save-internet-radio.com"]feedback@save-internet-radio.com[/EMAIL]. If you�re someone involved with setting these rates, you�re also welcome to contact us and explain why you think these rates are fair.

We�ll be updating this site with more information as this progresses, so please check back and get involved! [/quote]View: Full story courtesy of [URL="http://www.save-internet-radio.com/2007/03/02/save-internet-radio/"]Save Internet Radio[/URL]

#813773Post 2 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

karen i wouldnt worry about this this really only applies to the pop industry which relies on royalties which electronic music doesnt really get and even if it does and this happens then in my eyes this is fantastic news because we will return the the late 80's early 90's of pirate radio, who knows this could end up turning out the next carl cox ( thats where he started )

#813774Post 3 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

hmmm interesting point

#813792Post 4 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

seriously who makes up these numbers? it seems like someone sat down decided on some arbitrary numbers and said ok, now lets try and pass a law so we can make some extra money.

i want to pass a law for everytime i goto a website and come across a broken link the gov't owes me 5$, that sounds reasonable.

#813795Post 5 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

i think its disgusting that they change to play music simply because if ur an artist wanting to promote ur music the best way to do it is get it played on radio and the part that disgusts me about that is that they then charge the radio station for promoting/selling there music for them, the radio station does them a favour not the other way round

#813796Post 6 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

its a way to make free money without them having to do anything, so they are going to try damn hard to make a much $$ as possible

#813821Post 7 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

Fuck the RIAA.

#813823Post 8 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

It's deja-vu all over again.

#813831Post 9 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

^ You can say that again

#813834Post 10 of 372007-03-04

Re: Save Internet Radio

I try not to have hate in my life, but I hate the RIAA!

#813963Post 11 of 372007-03-05

Re: Save Internet Radio

[quote=red1;452420]i think its disgusting that they change to play music simply because if ur an artist wanting to promote ur music the best way to do it is get it played on radio and the part that disgusts me about that is that they then charge the radio station for promoting/selling there music for them, the radio station does them a favour not the other way round[/quote]

Exactly....unfortunately money drives society, so if they can find a way to make more of it, they will do it.

#813992Post 12 of 372007-03-05

Re: Save Internet Radio

this has been fought over for several years now, and I'm willing to bet it's not completely over yet...

#820811Post 13 of 372007-03-05

Re: Save Internet Radio

^^^no shit

#820819Post 14 of 372007-03-05

Re: Save Internet Radio

[quote=red1;452398]karen i wouldnt worry about this this really only applies to the pop industry which relies on royalties which electronic music doesnt really get and even if it does and this happens then in my eyes this is fantastic news because we will return the the late 80's early 90's of pirate radio, who knows this could end up turning out the next carl cox ( thats where he started )[/quote]

The above is true for pirate radio, but how about for those broadcasting properly? I think this is extremly bad news. I was curious how this would effect stations like Proton and Frisky. Beings that all the music that is played is in a mix, I dont think royalties would have to be returned to the artist. However, if they were playing track for track, wouldn't this be an issue?

#821015Post 15 of 372007-03-06

Re: Save Internet Radio

Why do people want to make life so hard?

#821069Post 16 of 372007-03-06

Re: Save Internet Radio

sad news...

#863863Post 17 of 372007-05-18

Re: Save Internet Radio

If this damn thing passes. Say goodbye to Porton Radio and Dimensional Radio.

[URL]http://www.petitiononline.com/SIR2007r/petition.html[/URL]

[URL]http://www.savenetradio.org[/URL]

[IMG]http://209.9.226.89/mirror/banner/savenetradio300x250.gif[/IMG]

#864072Post 18 of 372007-05-18

Re: Save Internet Radio

The good thing is that the copyright board decided to postpone the rate increases from May 15 til July 15 (no reason was given)...so the fight continues and an interesting fight it is. Quite interesting to see Real Media leading the fight against it.

Here's a few interesting points, first these fees only apply to internet radio and not commercial radio over the air, because interestingly enough the industry sees commercial radio as free promotion for themselves. How they don't see the same in online radio is beyond me...

Second, the copyright board also suggested a willingness to individually negotiate lower fees with particular broadcasters, which on it's face sounds good until you realize that they have the power to choose who to negotiate with and who not to. So good for the little more independent guys :(

#864084Post 19 of 372007-05-18

Re: Save Internet Radio

I vote we send Kamal back to India where we will outsource all internet radio stations. I doubt there's an effective RIAA-variant over there anyway :D

Oh, and without radio no artist will be heard. They should think of that.

#864154Post 20 of 372007-05-18

Re: Save Internet Radio

Problem is they don't think...greed is the only driver. :(

#864163Post 21 of 372007-05-18

Re: Save Internet Radio

thins is i bet this whole thing is driven by the pop industry, no underground music is good for them as they will try to work on the market thus creating a new market for them, fly as f**k, i think most decent net radio stations will talk to producers and labels if its ok to promote there music for them and i guessing here just now but i think about 99% of them will agree its ok for certain stations to play it, i guess it depends on the person

#864304Post 22 of 372007-05-19

Re: Save Internet Radio

You got that right Dom. It's all about Britney and all those other pop princesses making more money. And their labels making a tim more off their music...sorry...not their music...their singing, they don't make music.

#864359Post 23 of 372007-05-19

Re: Save Internet Radio

Meh, this applies to America and America only. There's a lot more to the world than just the US.

RIAA asking for too much? Move your station to a better country! Remember that your listener base is the whole world. You don't have to even justify to anyone why you are moving your station offshore.

#864364Post 24 of 372007-05-19

Re: Save Internet Radio

moving offshore is a great idea and i wish ppl like soma.fm could afford it, but i bet they cant. i wonder if they could move their whole operation to some type of colo in the UK and say fuck the RIAA, we are based out of Europe now, so your laws dont apply. i am sure they would if they could afford it...

#864371Post 25 of 372007-05-19

Re: Save Internet Radio

I'm sure it costs next to nothing to do. They're colocating in the US, they'll just be colocating elsewhere, perhaps in a country with a lower cost of living.

#864373Post 26 of 372007-05-19

Re: Save Internet Radio

well a country w/ a lower cost of living probably isnt the best place to house a radio station with 5000+ users at a time i would think. you need a spot with a good amount of bandwidth to service all that, which means a colo near a good NAP which doesnt happen in poor places....i could just be spitballing here (to quote big jack from a few good men)

#864588Post 27 of 372007-05-19

Re: Save Internet Radio

you know how much it would cost to relocate an internet radio station. Most of these IRS's are coming from some guys home or even bedroom.

And yeah it does only concern the US, but the US deserves freee internet radio the same as the rest of the world. Basically our government is trying to control everything about the net in the same way China and Iran/Iraq does.

#864945Post 28 of 372007-05-21

Re: Save Internet Radio

[QUOTE=jeffrey collins;490243]you know how much it would cost to relocate an internet radio station. Most of these IRS's are coming from some guys home or even bedroom.

Honestly it would cost next to nothing to relocate an internet radio station. Whether its coming from someone's basement or not.

And free internet radio?!? I'm sorry but I don't even support totally free internet radio. A lot of radio stations make money. This money is made off someone else's hard work (ie the artists). If you're making money off other people's tracks then you should at least be made to pay something to these guys.

The argument here is the outrageous amounts they want to charge, not so much the fact that they want to charge.

#864946Post 29 of 372007-05-21

Re: Save Internet Radio

[quote=Lorn;457270]Why do people want to make life so hard?[/quote]

I ask myself this question several times a day... :|

#865052Post 30 of 372007-05-21

Re: Save Internet Radio

[QUOTE=SyntaxTerror;490645]The argument here is the outrageous amounts they want to charge, not so much the fact that they want to charge.[/QUOTE] Actually, the argument here is partly the fact that they want to charge. They don't charge territorial radio anything to play the tracks.

Here's some legal background that may help many of you better understand the issues.
There are two types of royalties:

Songwriter/Publishing royalties - this is paid to the owner of the copyright (often jointly held by the composer and the record label). This would be for example the royalty the artist receives for each album sold.
Performance royalties - this is paid to the owner of the actual recording being played (often the record label). This is for the performance of the recording (ie. on the radio).

Now the story with performance royalties is that they're collected by an agency that represent the owners of the recordings...hence one of the biggest agencies is SoundExchange (representing all the majors), which not coincidentally is a spin-off from the RIAA.

And here's the kicker, they don't charge territorial radio any performance royalties because they say that it's being played spurs consumers to buy the actual recordings...so essentially they view it as free marketing for themselves. Yet they charge both satellite radio and internet radio rates fixed by the US copyright board and for some strange reason the rates are way higher for internet radio than they are for satellite.

That's the story in a nutshell...now if someone could just explain to me why territorial radio is viewed as free marketing, but the internet and satellite isn't...

so it is about them charging rates in the first place and that's before I even get into any discussion about the exorbitant amount they're looking to charge internet radio now.

#865058Post 31 of 372007-05-21

Re: Save Internet Radio

I only have this to say:

ahhhhhhh we're all fucked!!

Thank you. 8)

#865092Post 32 of 372007-05-21

Re: Save Internet Radio

You don't think it would cost a lot of money to ship everything you own overseas, just to keep a free internet station alive? And no one would allow someone to take over their station just so it can live on...unless they were about to pass away.

#865839Post 33 of 372007-05-24

Re: Save Internet Radio

only "large" casters would be affected by this...smaller ones got the stay until 2010.

[url]http://prod1.cmj.com/articles/display_article.php?id=36547302[/url]

#881589Post 34 of 372007-06-26

Internet Radio Day of Silence

A good majority of the internet radio streams are down today- Was really suprised to see Proton is taking part but Frisky is not-

The future of Internet radio is in immediate danger. Royalty rates for webcasters have been drastically increased by a recent ruling and are due to go into effect on July 15 (retroactive to Jan 1, 2006!).

Internet radio may be driven out of business within weeks by the Copyright Royalty Board decision that gives record companies a royalty rate that exceeds 100% of most webcasters' total revenues.

We are taking part in the Day of Silence to protest these rates and encourage you to take action and contact your Congressional representatives.

Ensure this silence is not permanent: [URL="http://www3.capwiz.com/saveinternetradio/issues/alert/?alertid=9738601"][COLOR=#0000ff]call your Congressional Representatives today![/COLOR][/URL]

Visit [URL="http://www.savenetradio.org/"][COLOR=#0000ff]SaveNetRadio.org[/COLOR][/URL] for links to a petition to Congress you can sign. Send the message directly to your Representative and Senators that you don't want to lose Internet radio!

Stay up-to-date with the latest internet radio news, visit [URL="http://www.kurthanson.com/"][COLOR=#0000ff]RAIN[/COLOR][/URL].

#881961Post 35 of 372007-06-27

Re: Internet Radio Day of Silence

[quote=jarble187;503041]A good majority of the internet radio streams are down today- Was really suprised to see Proton is taking part but Frisky is not- [/quote]

We did not silence friskyRadio because unlike most of the stations that fell silent yesterday, we have been involved with many others in the background to reverse these rates from the day they were announced several months ago. We did take part in a Day of Silence that took place back in 2002 (anyone remember that?) So this is nothing new to us, unfortunately.

We've also been playing PSAs for a few weeks now so this fight is not new to us. Having been thru one before, I took a decision earlier on that the friskyRadio community will be better served not to silence our e-waves this time around. I thought we shouldnt punish our listeners for what is a disagreement between the webcasters and the CRB.

No matter what happens, I see these new rates as a death knoll to innovation and progress that comes from proliferation of high-speed internet. Thats why these rates can not stand.

These rates are just ridiculous. They want to send us back to the dark ages with these.

#881967Post 36 of 372007-06-27

Re: Internet Radio Day of Silence

[quote=frisky;503447] I thought we shouldnt punish our listeners for what is a disagreement between the webcasters and the CRB. [/quote]

I can totally appreciate that, as I did listen to your stream yesterday for a bit. Thanks for the informative post and best of luck to Frisky however the rate hike goes down.

#882002Post 37 of 372007-06-27

Re: Internet Radio Day of Silence

[QUOTE=frisky;503447]I thought we shouldnt punish our listeners for what is a disagreement between the webcasters and the CRB.[/QUOTE] It's not punishing your listeners, it's showing that your listeners and yourself stand united with the many others that were making that point yesterday. Sorry, I just disagree with your decision and feel that you were trying to take an unfair advantage over those that silenced themselves (symbolically) as a stand against the CRB. Would your listeners really have been disadvantaged as a result of shutting down for a day? Everyone has access to music regardless of internet radio (albeit much of the music in this genre is produced through internet radio shows). It would have been nice for you too to have taken that symbolic stand.

Your justification would work against every internet radio station's decision to silence themselves. What makes your station or listeners any more special?