So I said a few weeks ago that I was going to post some intersting stuff that supports the fact that there was a creator (God) and we and the earth are not just a happen chance. I have dug deep into my studies to bring some interesting things and I know that people here (especially ecrypt and jenks:) ) like to discuss things that make you go hmmmmmm. So lets get started.

The first thing I would like to toss around is a thing called symbiosis. This is an area that strongly supports a creator and not what some would like to say the "big bang". A symbiotic relationship is one in which 2 organisms live in such a close relationship that one cannot live without the other. Certain plants cannot live without certain insects that pollinate them or clean them or store up certain nutrients for them. At the same time, the plant provides nourishment and/or protection for the insect. Sometimes such relationships exist between 2 plants or 2 animals, like the man-of-war jellyfish and the tiny fish that live among its tenticles and yet never get stung. These types of two-way symbiotic relationships are difficult to explain by natural causes because the question arises, "Which came first?"

If you agree that there are problems answering this question with two codependent life forms, how much more difficult do you think it would be to explain the simultaneous evolution of three? Yet this is what we find with a leaf-cutting ant species in South America whose colonies may contain up to eight million ants, ( a number which surpisingly represents the collective biomass of an adult cow.) These particular ants cultivate mushrooms as a farmer cultivates crops, using leaf cuttings instead of soil. The ants are not able to eat the leaves because the leaves contain a natural insecticide. Neither can the mushrooms live on the leaves because the surface of the leaves is coated with a prohibitive wax. To make the relationship work, the ants must carefully avoid the poison as they scrape the wax off the leaves. Without the wax, the leaves are able to decay into a mulch in which the mushrooms can grow. The mushrooms, in turn, harmlessly absorb the insecticide, converting it into an edible food for the ants called gongylidia. Neither creature could live without the other. Scientists have know about the dual nature of this symbiosis for a long time. However, recent studies have revealed another partner necessary to sustain the ant/mushroom relationship. The mushrooms have a parasite enemy that would normally destroy them, but they can be protected with an antibiotic produced by a special bacterium that, coincidentally, lives on the ants' bodies. So the bacterium depends upon the host ant's body for life. The ant depends upon the food produced by the mushrooms for life. And the mushrooms depend upon the ants' farming practices and the ants' pet bacterium for life. This three-way relationship is irreducibly complex. If any one of the partners is missing, the entire group dies. The only way such a codependent society could be produced is by intelligent design.

The biggest problem in trying to explain this being an accident would be, who came first, how did the other survive while the other evolved into its role in the relationship. Evolution form single-celled blobs just does not explain such complicated relationships in the scheme of life.

I have many more things to post but I will let you feed on this for a bit, while I type the other thigs as they are a bit more in depth and deal with the mathematical probability of the earth accidentally forming conditions to support life.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

Another thing I just thought of I want to post. Anyone ever heard of the angler fish. Without a creator/designer how do you explain how the fish got the wormlike appendage it suspends in front of itself to attract other fish within its "gobbling range". How did it survive before it got its built-in fishing tackle if it evolved from a single-celled blob?

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

Why do the ants have to cultivate mushrooms? I understand that the mushrooms produce an edible substance, but if that substance didn't exist then the ants would be forced to find alternative food sources. I'll await further postings before I form an opinion one way or the other.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

O.K. cowardly ... evolution and adaptation take time . millions of years . everytime a species gains the mearest hint of an advantage it's genes propagate and it dominates until it either exhausts it's food supply / another strain of it's species gains a better advantage or a predator revelling on it's new found abundance of food produces more offspring than had done in the past because it can now feed them . it's called striking a balance . it's the way nature works .this can all be put down to science not some mystical hand . if you realy wanted to come at us with the intelligence design aspect and show us the hand of god working it's wonders you should of gone smaller than ants and bacteria and instead chose to research for protiens ( i do read all science stuff ) these are the building blocks for life ( more intrinsic to who we are than D.N.A. there are simplistic 5mm worms with longer more complex D.N.A structures than our own ) but scientists believe it's proteins that make the human species so different not going to go into it all here because :ie(A) it would take around 3 pages of text .and.(B) i ain't [B]that[/B] smart . Anyhows what's puzzinling scientists is how 8 protiens could suddenly start to co-exist at the same time .This is the only logical argument fueling the creationist theory . Anyhows i have said this on a similar thread somewhere else on mercury but it's one of my faves so i'll say it again Backing the creationists is a school teacher who is teaching her children that dinosours where on the arc too . Way up how big this arc would be that noah built . to fit all the species that exist now and all that ever existed .Twice the size of Manhatten would not be a poor guess .. and picture this one if you could . Noah pushing a teranasaurus rex up the gang plank

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

i have a good bit of info on complex protiens that I will post for you bart. I am just throwing things out as food for thought. I am jusut getting warmed up and I will be posting more later but it is in depth and will be a long read so I am making it in word and will paste it here at a later time.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

:ChatterB: :p

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

well why start with the ants thing ? it is a flawed argument . the symbiotic relationship of protiens and how they came to form is the only serious unexplained argument that could substantiate the creationist theory. but science and common sense been shooting holes in everything the bible says is true about how we came to be for ages . we don't understand protiens at all yet because of the microspic scale and the speed at which they work at .[U]and when they do godbotheres will have one less straw to grasp at[/U]

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

The complexity of nature is indeed amazing but does not mean that a creator was involved. For millions of years some species have developed that kind of symbiotic or mutualism relations.

Why would a creator allow for parasite relations where one species takes advantage of the other? Why would a creator allow species to extinguish, even without the intervention of humans?

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

God made me. There is nothing I can do about it.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[quote=asdf_admin]God made me. There is nothing I can do about it.[/quote]

the essance of who you are is a totaly different subject to the one i'm arguing here asdf . this is about physical existance . and i presume ure talking about spiritual . ( i hope u are because i was happy how our last discussion on a similar subject ended ) awareness and consciousness are philosophical /ecrononimical discussions and i know zilch about such things so i won't get into that type of discussion

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

GOD is Good :Preachin:

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]what cowardly dj said[/QUOTE]

That's all very interesting, that such things occur in nature is obviously fascinating. In what way does this mandate the existence of God, though? The reasoning seems so circular, i.e., "there has to be a creator because there just does -- nature couldn't be this complex on its own." Why can't it be that complex without divine assistance?

There are patterns and relationships all throughout nature. Why can that not be the result of science? For example, when crystals crack, many cleave along a perfectly straight surface -- we know, however, that that is a result of molecular structure. Is it God's will that the molecular structure would lend itself to perfect breaks? Maybe. But maybe's it's just the way that it is.

Ultimately, a belief in God is based upon the ultimate blind faith -- taking as fact something that cannot be proven or disproven. There is probably nothing that could occur that would undeniably prove or disprove the existence of God. If you feel the touch of God in your life and it makes your life better, outstanding. Despite my arguing with you on this point, I probably even believe in some sort of overarching guiding force myself, whatever you would call that. The simple existence of amazing things in nature, however, doesn't [B]prove[/B] to me anything more than that nature is truly amazing.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

:Hmmm: why are we here???

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

toasty .. it makes you an agnostic . you believe in god but not religion . same as me . i believe vanity fuels religion . the desire to feel important / special / chosen . but as u also said if religion works for you great , just don't force it on everyone else .
we all hold beliefs none of us go through life not questioning subjects like this . but i just wish these religeous types wouldn't try teaching us science . they get ripped to pieces everytime

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[QUOTE=toasty]The reasoning seems so circular, i.e., "there has to be a creator because there just does -- nature couldn't be this complex on its own." [/QUOTE] Exactly. One can draw a correlation between any two items they want, but whether there's causality is a massively different and more important question.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

Confuscious says.......:BSPost:

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[QUOTE=bart_smastard]toasty .. it makes you an agnostic . you believe in god but not religion . [/QUOTE]

I think of agnostic as being open to the idea of God's existence, but requiring proof of it, as opposed to being an atheist and affirmatively believing that there is no God. I don't think that's quite me, but it's close.

I'd describe myself as spiritual but not religious. Even that probably overstates it though. ;)

Using science to prove the existence of God is just such a ridiculous bootstrapping type of argument. Frankly, when I look at the beautiful gal drinking beer in my avatar, I wonder at times if such perfection could only be the result of divine intervention. That doesn't necessarily make it so, though.

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^^^^^you got a point there that chick is way hot! :D

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Seems to me that Cowardly dj is into the "intelligent design" theory, right?

Take a look at this article

[url]http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4488706[/url]

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[QUOTE=toasty]Frankly, when I look at the beautiful gal drinking beer in my avatar, I wonder at times if such perfection could only be the result of divine intervention. [/QUOTE] Forget the girl, I wonder if such perfection is the work of divine intervention when I look at that frosty mug she's holding!

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I'm sorry, I thought I was logging in to [ms]... :shock:

If bees make honey, why don't wasps make chutney?

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

Listen pal, I'll take that rep power right back just as quickly as I gave it.

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[drunken rant]

Jeez man, how hard is it to imagine that nature might be able to create solutions beyond our limited range of thinking? We copy things off nature, not the other way around. The most ingenious solutions for problems are found (and still to be discovered) out there, not in our little undeveloped minds. The biggest problem I have with religion is that it assumes that we, humans, are the ultimate lifeform created by some greater being.

Well fuck that. If it is so, your god or any other kind of deity has done a pretty damn poor job. If this is the result, It is an amateur who has miserably failed. Look at the world, look at people, look at our beaviour, our characters. We as the ?ultimate? lifeform could learn a lot more from the ?lesser? lifeforms on this planet. Intelligence and self-consciousness may be fun, but it has certainly also led to a lot of bullshit and misery.

And last of all: how come you believe in an institution that, given it?s behaviour in the past centuries, has not really proven to be that what it claims to be?? I surely hope you do believe only for yourself, in sincerity. Because the church is a fuckup of epic proportions. And yes, here comes Africa again mate: Church went in there to convert all those people, preaching all kinds of stuff. Now, we get church-buildings that cost a zillion dollars, priests that poke little boys in their holes and whatnot. I was in Ghana a few years ago, and was told the church would be ending their funding of a local project where I resided. Still, every damn Sunday people went to church, and I attended it, to see what happended. Wanna know what?

They held fucking contests between the church-goers to see who could contribute the most!! No re-investment in the village, or building a school?nothing. They use the money to build a damn church, and to buy the most expensive Toyota Landcruiser for the local ?project supervisor?: what good does that do to those people when they cannot even pay of their own food huh? Can you live on prayers? Well I sure can?t!!

Religion in general is just a way of controlling people. Set yourself free, believe in yourself and accept that there is not an explanation for everything. Religion has discarded itself in so many ways that I truly with all my heart cannot believe that people actually are buying that crap.

[/drunken rant]

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[QUOTE=skahound]Listen pal, I'll take that rep power right back just as quickly as I gave it.[/QUOTE]

Sorry :(

[shame]skulks off to the naughty corner...[/shame]

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

You have to remember that whatever creature didn't fit into a specific mode of existance, didn't adapt in the particular way which you marvel at now it was eliminated and promptly forgotten. No one knows the ludicrous number of species that were wiped out before even the dinasours roamed because of their inability to adapt to form symbiotic relationships etc etc

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

is this the celebrity sextape thread?

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

bart.... Just out of curiosity are you a teenager because you talk like one. You say things that, to you may seem intelligent, but are remarkably stuck with immaturity. I do not mean this as an insult at all. I just think you should stop and think about what you say before you say it. I have spent years studying the Bible and different religions. I have spent years studying humanism and I will tell you this because you can not know this without studying it, man is a selfish creature, devoted to self-improvement at any cost. God is not a dictator and has given man free moral will. Most people choose to use this free will in a selfish way. That is just how it is and has been since man has existed. This is a fact whether you believe in creation as an accident or by design. That will never change. The Bible is full of selfish people doing selfish things just as our history books are.

Yao in answer to your post, God did not make mens personalities he only made us exist. We chose to war and kill and make the earth a terrible place to live. But I believe that God will have justice on the evil works of man when he brings judgement on mankind.

As for those who say science and the Bible do not go hand in hand, just hold your horses and I will show you how it does. Religion has been around long before science brought its opinions into things. There is no contradiction in the Bible as to science. If you think there is then bring me the proof of the contradiction. An accusation is simply that until proof is brought.

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

God 1 Humans 0

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Cowardly are you realy a christian and not just some hilarious comedian taking the piss ? I'm not going to bother explaining how and why i put things in certain ways ( and to be honnest if you have been studying humanism and the psychy of man i shouldn't have to ) Science was around long long before "your religion " ever came to be . So you better change that stupid part . Also you say science and religion go hand in hand /side by side . What fucking drugs are you on ? How old is the earth according to the bible? how many days did it take god to create the heavens in comparrison to the earth ? how long has man been on this plannet? how big was this ark that contained all gods creatures . the list goes on but i havn't read that piece of fiction you swear by so please can others help me anyone know daft facts or rules written in the bible please post

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

bart_smastard - Science was around long long before "your religion " ever came to be . So you better change that stupid part .

cowardly dj - Not a fact at all sir. Religion has been here and science has only been around for a few thousand years and that is a conservative number. you should study a bit more.

bart_smasterd - How old is the earth according to the bible?

cowardly dj - The Bible does not say. It is not a text designed for scientific purposes.

bart_smastard - how many days did it take god to create the heavens in comparrison to the earth ? Cowardly dj - Both were made in one day. Read Genesis chapter 1

bart_smastard - how long has man been on this plannet? cowardly dj - Irrelevant to going to Heaven or Hell or if God created man. Purely a humanistic question that carries no religious weight

bart_smastard - how big was this ark that contained all gods creatures .

cowardly dj - a complete description of the exact size of the ark is listed in great detail in Genesis. Try researching it and come up with the answer yourself

As I said before I did not mean that comment as an insult. You are what some would call a person full of verbal d[FONT=Times New Roman]iarrhea. You just run all the time [/FONT]

be not offended in these comments. I am just offering you a way to improve your intelligence. If people thought before they spoke you would find an incresed intelligence in the world

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[QUOTE=cowardly dj] As for those who say science and the Bible do not go hand in hand, just hold your horses and I will show you how it does. ... There is no contradiction in the Bible as to science. If you think there is then bring me the proof of the contradiction. [/QUOTE]

Speaking for myself, I'm not saying that science and religion can't peacefully coexist. I'm saying that trying to establish the existence of God through science is not only impossible, but flies in the whole notion of faith to begin with. A belief in God or religion is basically putting faith into an inherently unverifiable truth. If you're looking to science to provide justification for your faith, is it really "faith" at all?

[QUOTE=cowardly dj] Religion has been around long before science brought its opinions into things. [/QUOTE]

Sorry dude, but this is officially the silliest argument I've ever heard to justify faith in God or anything. I don't know if you've noticed, but we -- as in we, the inhabitants of this planet -- have made some pretty significant strides in terms of knowledge over the last few millions of years. That knowledge provides us with the understanding necessary to grasp the world in which we live. Part of the role in religion historically was to help make sense of that which we didn't understand.

Think about how many religions worshipped the Sun as a God because they didn't know what it was? Now, thanks to the folks at Schoolhouse Rock, we know that it's "hydrogen and helium in a big, bright, glowing mass," and not a god after all. Under your reasoning, though, their belief system would be more valid because it has been around longer. That's absurd.

How about the Greeks and Romans that worshipped multiple gods? Wouldn't their beliefs be more "correct" than modern religion because they have been around longer? That seems to be consistent with what you're saying. The argument that religion is more valid than science because it has been around longer simply holds no water under any rational interpretation of the issue.

There's plenty out there that is still unknown and likely unknowable. No matter how smart we get, I doubt we'll ever know exactly how it is that life sprung forth as an initial matter. Too much of a "chicken or the egg" sort of thing. Let religion fill those gaps for you if it makes you happy. Come to think of it, let religion be whatever role you want, I could really care less. But don't tell me that a belief system based on God is more valid than one based on science simply because the former is older. That's just not solid logic.

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[quote=toasty]Speaking for myself, I'm not saying that science and religion can't peacefully coexist. I'm saying that trying to establish the existence of God through science is not only impossible, but flies in the whole notion of faith to begin with. A belief in God or religion is basically putting faith into an inherently unverifiable truth. If you're looking to science to provide justification for your faith, is it really "faith" at all?

Sorry dude, but this is officially the silliest argument I've ever heard to justify faith in God or anything.[/quote]

first comment: I am not using science to establish proof of God as it is absolutely not possible in the proof that most people call proof. Proof is in the five senses hear see touch smell taste. You can not do any of that to prove God. You hit it right about the faith thing. I am only saying that the Bible and science do not contridict each other.

secondly: you can not see hear taste touch or smell time but no one would refute its existence would they?

in fact it is TIME I am off to work 8)

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so "your religion" was around before science .christianity is 2000 years old the pyramids date back 8000 years . science and technology put them together it's been about since fire and the wheel .. so if the earth and the stars were built in 1 day and it took 4-5 days to decorate it . the earth must be some signifficent and huge wonderful place . [B]wrong[/B] , it's fuckall in the grand order of things . read a book based on sense and fact and u'll realise what a miniscule irrelevant lil speck of dust this planet is . also according to religion it states around about that the earth is only 30,000 years old .. so science and the bible don't contradict at all ... and finnaly you claim to study the bible .. when you study something thoroughly you dissect / take to pieces / look for flaws and try to discover something new .. You just read and quote from it like an entranced idiot without the capacity to see beyond the black and white

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[QUOTE=bart_smastard]so "your religion" was around before science .christianity is 2000 years old the pyramids date back 8000 years . science and technology put them together it's been about since fire and the wheel .. so if the earth and the stars were built in 1 day and it took 4-5 days to decorate it . the earth must be some signifficent and huge wonderful place . [B]wrong[/B] , it's fuckall in the grand order of things . read a book based on sense and fact and u'll realise what a miniscule irrelevant lil speck of dust this planet is . also according to religion it states around about that the earth is only 30,000 years old .. so science and the bible don't contradict at all ... and finnaly you claim to study the bible .. when you study something thoroughly you dissect / take to pieces / look for flaws and try to discover something new .. You just read and quote from it like an entranced idiot without the capacity to see beyond the black and white[/QUOTE]

I'm with you on this one: it's religion that has placed this 3rd rock from the sun and it's barely evolved and immensely stupid inhabitants at the center of things. We are nothing, and we will someday not be anymore, and there will be nothing/no-one mourning over that IMO. Maybe someday a lost alien will be holding some human bones in it's 'hands' and wonder what these strange hard white weird shaped things are.

[quote="Cowardly_DJ]Yao in answer to your post, God did not make mens personalities he only made us exist. We chose to war and kill and make the earth a terrible place to live. But I believe that God will have justice on the evil works of man when he brings judgement on mankind.[/quote]

You see, it's not a belief as such that I hate...I highly respect anyone and his.her belief, as long as they respect me with my worldview just as much. What I do not respect in any way is this bible-waving and pointing at me telling me that i'll got to hell if I do not choose 'the right path'. [B]If your God has given me the liberty to choose, he'll have to learn to live with my choices.[/B] If he doesn't like that, that's his problem, but since he doesn't come down to slap me around or jams a lighting bolt up my ass I assume he's allright with it. Tell me: would you respect your parents if they didn't care about you and just let you find everything out on your own? What kind of father just gives his kid a book and says: "Here ya go son, good luck and all that stuff, see ya when you're dead"?

And if he wishes to get down on me when I'm dead, I'll punch him a bleeding nose for being such a lame ass. But until I see that divine nosebleed I'm gonna stick with what I can see, hear, feel, taste, smell and fuck.

Dude, I know I'm coming off here as pretty frustrated, but I've seen enough so far to have become totally disillusioned by any religion whatsoever. It's the people that are firmest and strongest in their belief that are off worst in their lives, and this goes for every belief/religion. This world is just fucking wrong, and I'm gonna do some right without moralising the shit out of people who do not need sermons and prayers, but just a little food and a roof over their head.

[I]You cannot even begin to imagine how superfuckingpissed I am with how things are in this respect.[/I]

Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

[quote=cowardly dj]As I said before I did not mean that comment as an insult. You are what some would call a person full of verbal [FONT=Arial]d[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Arial]iarrhea. You just run all the time[/FONT] [/FONT]be not offended in these comments. I am just offering you a way to improve your intelligence. If people thought before they spoke you would find an incresed intelligence in the world[/quote] How the fuck is he not supposed to take that as an insult? It is an insult plain and simple. I've tried to stay out of this, but you're just pissing me off now. This thread is nothing but preaching, and I don't think it's got any place on this board. You have your opinions, and from what I've read they seem to give you the right to insult other people and be-little their beliefs.

I hope your religon helps you get through life, enjoy it and leave other people to theirs.

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And btw this was supposed to be your chance to prove intelligent design cowardly .And seeing as my feeble intelligence shot you down on both arguments , how can you be talking about me needing educating . Get a life ,grow a brain and live a little