Apologies for wasting precious thread space, but this I thought expressed my views to 'comercial' above ground EDM:

[url="http://thump.vice.com/en_uk/words/seth-troxlers-guide-to-dance-music-festivals-clubbing-and-not-being-a-terrible-human"]Seth Troxler: | Thump[/url]

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Good read

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Thanks for post.

delete the part about being sorry for posting it too.

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nice one!

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Great read, thank you!

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he's right overall, but there's some bullshit in that piece too imo. For example, a girl snorting coke off another girls pussy is horrible at a festival, but cool in a club? Not sure about that. As for the rimming in Berghain...

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[QUOTE]That’s not clubbing, that’s a concert of cunts.[/QUOTE]

Can't disagree with the article.

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concert of cunts. indeed.

HOWEVER, the fact that tens of thousands ? hundreds of thousands? of people go and enjoy it - and keep going back for more, seems like the masses have spoken. Just cos you/we/I don't enjoy it doesn't mean they shouldn't.

and i refer you to this vid if you need more:

[url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?146309-SNL-hits-up-Davvincii-when-will-the-bass-drop"]SNL hits up Davvincii - when will the bass drop ?[/url]

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[QUOTE=Huggie Smiles;1127252]

HOWEVER, the fact that tens of thousands ? hundreds of thousands? of people go and enjoy it - and keep going back for more, seems like the masses have spoken. [/QUOTE]

Well that's really the law of mediocrity and the lowest denominator ;)

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What were the raves in the UK in the 80's and 90's? Festivals with poor soundsystems and thousands of people turning up every weekend from all round the country.

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[QUOTE] Now people consider a “good event” something that’s really packed with bodies and “energy”: energy-packed-extreme! That’s not clubbing, man.[/QUOTE]

Seem to remember that more 20 years ago than now. Sasha & Digweed at Fabric 2001 anyone!

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Just reading Seth's biography

[QUOTE]Troxler went to underground techno raves, and shortly after threw his own underground parties - notably booking Magda to play for him when he was only fifteen years old[/QUOTE]

I've been to loads of clubs, never seen one where they employ 15 year old boys.

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I agree with a lot of it...but there was a comment about entry level electronic music listeners being the main attendees of these music festivals and that's basically what it is. Overall I think the scene has gotten what it's asked for. I mean the majority of clubs are simply open to make $$$, and do so by selling alcohol. So the festivals have figured out how to do that without a (soon to close anyway) brick and mortar operation like a club, so what, it's a for profit world we live in, is it not?Why compare apples and oranges anyway? I do sympathize though with dj's who have been at it for years and have to cater to this particular newer generation... I think most of the kids nowadays go to festivals not to meet new people but to hang out with their friends... same with clubs mostly. People don't need to go to a club to meet new people anymore, social networking has kind of mitigated all of that now. So my opinion is that it's just different now. The marketers have figured out how to sell the perceived cool factor of going out, made is stale, safe and full of colorful cake, rides and glow sticks. It's no longer underground, and that's that. The larger collective conscious is turning up (see what I did there) at these huge festivals, not packing clubs to hear the newest tunes, for the most part. But if Troxler was really serious about his distaste than why even go to them? Why not carve out a tour that is comprised only of "underground" intellectual clubs where bears are eating assholes? The whole rave culture thing was counter-culture for so long, I mean in a way the whole movement kind of succeeded at becoming somewhat mainstream, even though the music is different, fuck at least it's still music. People going out and having a good time listening to music is wrong? Fuck you pretentious anti-pretintious - underground - anti commercial purists :lol:... He should spend more time trying to find the beauty in the madness vs. finding the idiocy, which btw takes more effort and open-mindedness. Can't say I would necessarily be able to after traveling all the time and seeing all the shit Troxler describes, but then again I didn't sign up to be a DJ :lol:.

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[QUOTE=Huggie Smiles;1127252]concert of cunts. indeed.

HOWEVER, the fact that tens of thousands ? hundreds of thousands? of people go and enjoy it - and keep going back for more, seems like the masses have spoken. Just cos you/we/I don't enjoy it doesn't mean they shouldn't. [/QUOTE]

^Agreed -

Additionally, John Digweed performs at EDC... so if one of these cunts leaves having heard Digweed for the first time - that's a good thing, right?

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I think maybe it's not so much whether people are having fun or enjoying the music. Given enough alcohol/drugs/company you can have fun anywhere whether it's at a festival or club or stadium or football or home.

I think the contention here is what people are getting out of it beyond the superficiality of fun.

Which some of you might think is an elitist / snobbish attitude, cos sure, who are we to complain if people are enjoying themselves.

If people are into this kinda fun, that's to their advantage and loss as I see it. It's like comparing a Michael Bay Transformers movie to some other sci-fi film that I would find [I]intellectually stimulating[/I].

And I do find electronic music intellectually or conceptually stimulating.

I think most of us around here have been listening to this stuff long enough, have stepped into a record shop or at least gone somewhere to listen to a single, have some rudimentary appreciation for a good track (subjectively) and a DJ's technical prowess at mixing together them tracks and programming a set.

In a club we have the opportunity to listen deeper. Does that sound elitist or snobbish? It's no different from going to a classical concert and seeing a conductor at work and sifting through the layers of instruments, except I'm dancing on the floor and I can share it with friends.

Can I do that at a festival? No fucking way.

And another thing that I find distasteful is the lack of etiquette. Sorry but back in the day at 'raves', whether it was PLUR or good pills, people had respect and it was generally a cordial if not warm environment. People looked out for others. We understood that we're there to have fun and enjoy the music, and we respected each other's personal space and give each other room to dance. We all felt like we belonged to something on the floor and we were there for the same thing.

At the tail end of my raving days it's like the whole alcohol/coke vibe has seeped in, plus seeing underaged kids wasted falling over themselves is never a good sight.

So what if they get an introduction to EDM or listen to Digweed for their very first time? Does that really make an impact or difference?

While I can't possibly fault festival-goers enjoying themselves since I've been there done that, Troxler brings up a valid point of what do they get out of it and what kinda EDM fans are these festivals breeding?

I don't want to sound like I'm fighting for a cause here 'cos there isn't one, I don't expect to create a movement or change things. But I have a vastly different idea of 'enjoyment' vs a bunch of assholes getting wasted at festivals.

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What'e comes off snobbish is when people suggest that others should appreciate what they appreciate because of it's intellectual stimulatory properties. When in actuality perhaps those individuals that enjoy Steve Akoi or whatever get their intellectual stimulation elsewhere, like say country music or classical or driving trucks through mud, what have you. People are different, and come upon intellectual stimulation in different arenas of life at different times for different reasons. Lets face it, many of us started with Paul Oakenfold or Dj Keoki or R-Fresh or Dj Icey... Breakbeats and Drum and Bass, etc... it's not like that shit is necessarily "intellectually stimulating" to us now, but then, when all we cared about was getting high and fucking chicks, that's what we enjoyed. I think the superstar DJ's have figured out, just like every other genre of music, how to EXPLOIT the raging hormones of the youth and therefore play music that is basically a cheap thrill to us older folks. Couple that with the new social media, networking, lack of clubbing landscape, and there you have it. Even the clubs that do exist mostly make their profits off of dj's that will play bass dropping tracks, etc. So rather than criticize may as well accept it to a certain extent.

At the end of the day - I think it's cool music is reaching people that would probably otherwise not go out and hear live music at all... I think probably half of these festival goers wouldn't go to clubs anyway.

Watch the Grammy's or Billboard Awards or any other music related award show. It's the same people winning everything. Justin Timberlake, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Jay Z, Florida Georgia Line, Bruno Mars, Shakira, etc. So in my opinion, compared to the mainstream music that all these kids listen to, this shitty EDM music is better than that^^. And ^that is what the mainstream population of kids all listen to because it's what's marketed toward them by clear channel or whatever.

BTW, this doesn't mean that there isn't a large populace of younger people who enjoy intellectually stimulating environments with music, there just isn't enough of it being played anymore because it probably doesn't equal [U][I][B]profits[/B][/I][/U].

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Omid seems to be angry too.

[url="http://change-underground.com/omid-16b-things-need-to-change?fb_action_ids=10152489023601495&fb_action_types=og.comments"]OMID 16B: THINGS NEED TO CHANGE[/url]

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No I never said people should appreciate something the same way as others. I pointed out the different ways of appreciating the same thing and what one hopes to get out of it.

Since we're talking about festivals I limited my discussion of stimulation to EDM. I don't doubt everyone gets stimulation outside of festivals and EDM.

It doesn't bother me that people enjoy the festivals and go, because I'm not there :) I agree with what Troxler said and wrote what I posted for the sake of discussion. You can bet the festival goers aren't talking about us old farts moaning about the scene ;)

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:lol: nope. there busy staring at half naked chicks twerking to bass heavy Trap music

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[QUOTE=unkle;1127335]Omid seems to be angry too.

[URL="http://change-underground.com/omid-16b-things-need-to-change?fb_action_ids=10152489023601495&fb_action_types=og.comments"]OMID 16B: THINGS NEED TO CHANGE[/URL][/QUOTE]

Def agree with Omid... and I've been saying this for a while now:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/j6KFjet.png[/IMG]

too many copy cats. Perhaps Troxler was saying the same thing, I'm not sure. I didn't really look at it as having a major impact on the entire scene so far as producers not being able to afford to put out new music. But then again, making money with music hasn't really been viable since pirating began. That's not new is it? Sounds like the new owner of Beatport is doing what shitty owners of companies do, trying to make more money at the expense of everything good.

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[QUOTE=Huggie Smiles;1127252]concert of cunts. indeed.

HOWEVER, the fact that tens of thousands ? hundreds of thousands? of people go and enjoy it - and keep going back for more, seems like the masses have spoken. Just cos you/we/I don't enjoy it doesn't mean they shouldn't.

and i refer you to this vid if you need more:

[URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?146309-SNL-hits-up-Davvincii-when-will-the-bass-drop"]SNL hits up Davvincii - when will the bass drop ?[/URL][/QUOTE]

^Still cracks me up.

HOWEVER, you do raise a good point about people getting out there for the enjoyment, no matter how shite the music may sound. I'll admit to the fact that I too have been to many pointless festivals, where I personally would have thought if I had not been on drugs, this would have been the biggest waste of time, money, effort, and exuberance within my personal capabilities in correlation to the laws surrounding the existence of the universe.

Are we all getting to the 'grumpy' old-man/women stage where within our objectives we had failed to accept change? Or is a festival with more so known for its carnival atmosphere a little too fucking much?

Personally as age gets to me, I can't quite say if I hate anything new because I fail to accept change or if I realise I have a personal hate to anything that is inconsistent to my predicaments. E.g. KKK towards African Americans?

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Omid's article is WORD.

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I think this posted by Google from the [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?144789-2014-John-Digweed-live-in&p=1127358#post1127358"]Digweed 2014 thread[/URL], also adds to the argument, I think the class separation adds to the overall vibe of EDM, well I know this has been going on for years, probably since the dawn of EDM. I believe the best nights I've had in my life at a nightclub, have been evident in smaller clubs, of minimising all the [I]bells and whistles[/I], as JD puts it:

[QUOTE][I][B]You've been around long enough to see many clubs come and go, what was different about the Vagabond?[/B][/I]

I think the way The Vagabond was run and the nights programmed really tapped into the local crowd, offering a whole variation of different music based nights throughout the week. It had a real friends-and-family atmosphere and drinks were regular pub prices, which complemented the vibe. It didn't go for a VIP crowd, but made everyone feel like they were a VIP. All were made to feel welcome.

[I][B]Do you think this is following any kind of general trend, where the smaller, earthier clubs are getting pushed about by the big shiny plastic ones?[/B][/I]

I think people will always want to search out and find the more raw and underground clubs. If everyone went to the same style clubs it would be boring. When you find an intimate place like The Vagabond you can really open up people's eyes into how much fun they really have in a club without having to distract them with unnecessary bells and whistles.[/QUOTE]

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''I find the the hero worship of Seth Toxler as he betrays the scene that made him rich, a scene he gladly became part of, a scene that is a grotesque incarnation derived for the obscene enrichment of the few at the expense of the many, both sad and pathetic. Since when did vacuous hypocrisy and two-faced backstabbing become acceptable? What is wrong with people? The very reason Toxler sold out the scene in exchange for dollars is the same reason he is spouting this duplicitous crap. Instead of cheering him on because he has conned you into thinking he has finally seen the light, ask him to cancel every EDM festival he is booked to play for the next 12 months and then see what the response will be. If he feels this strongly about it, he wont have an issue standing by his principles will he? Methinks you will find Mr Toxler has as much integrity as the EDM festivals he plays at.''

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A Billboard author had a nice article on this whole thing:

[url="http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/code/6099117/edm-the-underground-time-to-end-the-hate-op-ed"]EDM The Underground| Billboard[/url]

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1127343]:lol: nope. there busy staring at half naked chicks twerking to bass heavy Trap music[/QUOTE]

:lol:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mCdmqBz.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Illuminate;1127359]I think this posted by Google from the [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?144789-2014-John-Digweed-live-in&p=1127358#post1127358"]Digweed 2014 thread[/URL], also adds to the argument, I think the class separation adds to the overall vibe of EDM, well I know this has been going on for years, probably since the dawn of EDM. I believe the best nights I've had in my life at a nightclub, have been evident in smaller clubs, of minimising all the [I]bells and whistles[/I], as JD puts it:[/QUOTE]

Yeah.. There are quite a few elements that need to come together for a good party. I used to think that if you follow the music, you will end up at parties with a good vibe and cool peeps, but that turned out to be far from the truth. Yes, certain types of music will keep certain types away, but that's when the venue comes in.. if its trendy and VIP heavy, no matter who is playing there, you will end up with random douchebags who just happened to be there because that's the popular spot at the moment, they are not there for the music or to have a good time.. so that creates friction, and it could potentially ruin the whole party for you.

For example, Richie Hawtin played at the Ice Palace the day before Digweed played at the Vagabond... dude.. night and day. I like his sound, but I couldn't stand the intense looks in there ... so I just left. I am starting to think that cocaine and EDM don't mix too well. Ask anyone that was at the Vaga the next night and they will tell you that it was incredible.. the music was better as well of course, but that's besides the point :)

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Good read..

Sometimes i think this underground music vs commercial djs stuff, is all about money and worldwide recognition.. i mean, Aoki's, Avicii`s and those kind of djs have disproportional remunerations for their work, regardless what it is consider "quality" or not... thats the crucial point at the end of the day... something like "this crappy quality Dj can not earn that money" ... i could be wrong though, just an opinion..

That being said, i can not clearly understand why "underground" Djs are normally part of those big festivals if clubbing in dark clubs culture should be an inmaculate sort of ritual if you know what i mean.. as i am concerned, never heard Sasha, Digweed or Hernan bitching around this dicotomy.. They did and do their thing following their instincts.. the result is not that bad evaluating everything as a whole right?

Respect for everyone opinions, but diversity should be the key ... no matter the result .. time will put everything in the right place...