So I saw Gabriel and Dresden at Spundae in LA on Saturday night. Apple laptop set up - Dave the Wave had headphones on and was bouncing around, Gabriel was working the laptop. The tunes were pretty good, the crowd was dancing...

Then I went upstairs.

I looked down and as you can see into the booth, I saw that Gabriel was just looking at his computer, and there was only one track open on the mixer. No cds, no vinyl, at all thoughout their set. I watched for about 30 minutes and not once was any attempt made to "add loops or fx on the fly". Dave would occasionally put the headphones on, dance around, and tweak the eq and the filters on the Xone. That's it. And there was no reason for him to wear the headphones, because there was never a mix. It was all for show.

I'm sorry folks, but that kinda pisses me off. :twisted: Getting paid to play one track? Granted that a lot of it was their music, and they spent some time putting together their set - but there was absolutely no "live" element.

Underworld and others use prerecorded stuff too, but they sing, jam, and add loops etc. There was none of that.

At least Sasha actually has a mixer and can add loops etc. I haven't heard Zabiela's set yet, but I'm sure it was different.

I ask: if you're not playing off the crowd, is it djing?

To me this experience epitomizes the worst that can happen with Ableton - I'm sure Sasha's way on the other side of the spectrum, doing the best.

Thoughts?

Of course its not DJing. Grabiel and Dresden have good tracks i'm amazed they would do such a thing. There's a million excuses but none are justifyable enough for them to do that. When you mix in Ableton you get separate "lines" in the arrangement view. So if you say they only had one track then yeah, they werent mixing. They were just playing something pre recorded.

That?s really fucking weak...

I?m hugely in favour of DJ?s using Live, and I?ve supported and used the program since v2, so when I hear reports like this, I get really pissed, because this is exactly HOW YOU SHOULD NOT use technology for DJ?ing.

I mean, why use it at all if you?re going to use it like this? I wonder if using Live is now becoming "fashionable" amongst DJ?s, so these guys felt it would be cool to do show up with a laptop and Ableton Live?

And let?s not even get into how disrespectful this is to the crowd who pays to see this...

You've hit it spot on, Kinetic. I think it is hugely disrespectful to the crowd. They might as well have been playing to a wall...their set would've sounded the same.

i wonder if the mix was good though... it doesn't matter if the sound coming out of the speakers makes you lose your shit that the jokers in the booth are just putting on a show.

but if the sound was weak then that REALLY sucks.

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

that is shady. clubs dont pay you to appear, they pay you to DJ. its like hanging the old GU posters in the booth at twilo and playing digweed-hong kong. :(

"2 turntables and a microphone."

might as well render the whole thing on a CD, stick it in and go dance WITH the crowd... maybe those guys weren't really that experienced with Live so they didn't want to screw up their automations or whatever by adding stuff in real time. in any case, if i ever saw a DJ do the pre-rerecorded thing like this at a show i'd lose all respect for him, no matter how much i like the music. it would be Ableton Dead for that dude...

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

when g & d was here last summer, dave the wave played all vinyl and mixed every record manually... :D

josh gabriel played off his laptop, never touched a turntable, and sounded robotically flawless :roll:

i am so fucking sick of all this ableton bullshit :evil:

so innovative, oh so creative, give me a fucking break :roll:

my friend Danny is an ableton master, does that mean we should worship him too?????

[quote=th33f]. in any case, if i ever saw a DJ do the pre-rerecorded thing like this at a show i'd lose all respect for him, no matter how much i like the music. it would be Ableton Dead for that dude...[/quote]

dont ever go to JXL.

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

[quote=thesightless]that is shady. clubs dont pay you to appear, they pay you to DJ. its like hanging the old GU posters in the booth at twilo and playing digweed-hong kong. :(

"2 turntables and a microphone."[/quote]

junior vasques has been guilty of this many of times..

i hate junior. never liked his music. the only song he ever played that put a smile on my face, was the remix of dolly parton's cover of peace train. i heard it after about 8 pills at sunrise after a rave a few years back, and i was sitting on a hill just outside UMASS watchign the sun peek through the mountainside and through some clouds.

[quote=lemon]Grabiel and Dresden have good tracks[/quote] C'mon everybody, sing along...

"There's a coldness in the air but i don't care.... (Embrace me...surround me)

Travelling somewhere could be anywhere there's a coldness in the air but i don't care we drift deeper life goes on we drift deeper into the sound

(Embrace me...surround me.. as the rush..)

Travelling somewhere could be anywhere there's a coldness in the air yeah but i don't care we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong

so bring it on so bring it onnnn we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong so bring it on so bring it onnnn we drift deeper........

we drift deeper life goes on we drift deeper drift deeper we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong so bring it on so bring it onnnn we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong so bring it on so bring it onnnn

embrace me .. surround me as the rush comes [ x 8 ]

as the rush comes as the rush comes as the rush comes..."

I suppose a live musician could say the same thing to a DJ: You're playing pre-recorded music and calling it "live".

If it's truly "all about the music", then the sky's the limit with technology. Vinyl, CD, PCM from a laptop- it's all sound, so whatever sounds the best and the most musical IS the best. Just because something is easy doesn't make it bad- what makes it bad is always poor taste, which, of course, will never be eliminated.

I hate it when people complain about DJs not using vinyl. If it could come straight out of someone's head and into the speakers, it would, but it doesn't, so we have to use media. Now media is changing; learn to use it, not fear it.

THAT SAID...

Going to a gig and playing a laid out set is not DJing; it's just playing music out of speakers. And it's a shame that professionals will do this. However, this is not any different whether you play vinyl, CDs, or straight from a computer. The only thing different about a computer is that beatmatching becomes perfect, and certainly no one who is concerned about "the music" will doubt that this is a step forward. I hate hearing trainwrecks, don't you?

Blame the user, not the tech!

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

[quote=Weizy] i am so fucking sick of all this ableton bullshit :evil:

so innovative, oh so creative, give me a fucking break :roll: [/quote]

If you're unhappy with the house, blame the carpenter, not the tools.

yea about gabriel and dresden.

like 2 or 3 years ago ro something i remember dave dresden was at dna lounge for an hour or maybe alittle bit more than an hour. but some ppl on here know that they have videos of their acts all the time, they let you see right into the booth/turntables and see what they are doing.

well anyway. the night that dresden was on, all he had was a cd playing, i never saw any vinyl or anything, no cd changes at all, yea he was wearing headphones the whole night i can remember also. i didnt think much of it at the time but now that this topic is here, got me thinking. thats all he did was play 1 cd track. headphones on for waht reason????

-ddr

haxx0rz!!1

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

[quote=lopark][quote=Weizy] i am so fucking sick of all this ableton bullshit :evil:

so innovative, oh so creative, give me a fucking break :roll: [/quote]

If you're unhappy with the house, blame the carpenter, not the tools.[/quote]

yeah you got me there... :)

i am all about somebody who is gonna use these new tools to do something new and different. but, i fear that the ability of anyone to be flawless without real skill will lead to the downfall of the dj, especially for those of us who are trying to work themselves up from the bottom

:shock: wtf at the above

i was really diggin their essential mix last year. this brings a little shame to the name. i hope one of the guys comes on to give their side of the story.

Why not just be real about what they do and just have a laptop pointing to the fans with winamp on and have the one track for the two hours or so on the laptop and let it ride.

Why are people like this suddenly becoming so damn lazy?

[quote=jeffrey collins]Why are people like this suddenly becoming so damn lazy?[/quote]

I think it's an issue of priorities. I know of a certain moonshine DJ (who shall remain nameless) who was once played a club and made it fairly obvious that he was more concerned with his tray of coke in the back than the crowd in front of him.

[quote=lopark][quote=jeffrey collins]Why are people like this suddenly becoming so damn lazy?[/quote]

I think it's an issue of priorities. I know of a certain moonshine DJ (who shall remain nameless) who was once played a club and made it fairly obvious that he was more concerned with his tray of coke in the back than the crowd in front of him.[/quote]

If I had an entire tray I'd be concerned too...

tray of coke not so much fun sounding as a bucket of K (kfc, yeah, thats it)

ahhhh, the powders of yesteryear

[quote=skahound][quote=lemon]Grabiel and Dresden have good tracks[/quote] C'mon everybody, sing along...

"There's a coldness in the air but i don't care.... (Embrace me...surround me)

Travelling somewhere could be anywhere there's a coldness in the air but i don't care we drift deeper life goes on we drift deeper into the sound

(Embrace me...surround me.. as the rush..)

Travelling somewhere could be anywhere there's a coldness in the air yeah but i don't care we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong

so bring it on so bring it onnnn we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong so bring it on so bring it onnnn we drift deeper........

we drift deeper life goes on we drift deeper drift deeper we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong so bring it on so bring it onnnn we drift deeper into the song life goes on we drift deeper into the sound feeling strong so bring it on so bring it onnnn

embrace me .. surround me as the rush comes [ x 8 ]

as the rush comes as the rush comes as the rush comes..."[/quote]

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

[quote=Weizy][quote=lopark][quote=Weizy] i am so fucking sick of all this ableton bullshit :evil:

so innovative, oh so creative, give me a fucking break :roll: [/quote]

If you're unhappy with the house, blame the carpenter, not the tools.[/quote]

yeah you got me there... :)

i am all about somebody who is gonna use these new tools to do something new and different. but, i fear that the ability of anyone to be flawless without real skill will lead to the downfall of the dj, especially for those of us who are trying to work themselves up from the bottom[/quote]

Like I said, I?m a big Ableton Live supporter, but I don?t think the medium is the most important thing here. Like someone else said, they could just?ve used Winamp for this, for example.

The point in using these new technologies is to enhance creativity in a performance. To tell you the truth, I think someone who?s using Ableton Live cannot be called a DJ, but a live performer. This is what, to me, Sasha has become now : a live performer. I mean, where?s the "D" in DJ?ing with Live? Why try to emulate a typical DJ set with these tools?

Don?t trick yourself into thinking that the technology will make you flawless. Sure, if you?re only using it to play a pre-recorded ser, it will sound flawless to those who don?t see it like it is, but there?s a lot to be said about what Sasha is doing, or look at that Spector mix someone posted a link to here recently. Don?t tell me it doesn?t take skill, creativity and talent to do that! It?s not just about clicking your mouse to play a song!

So my point is that, if people are paying to watch you perform (no matter on what platform), they have the right to at least have the artist "try" to put on a show.

This is an insult to a crowd and, as someone who?s been using Live for music production and only recently started to scratch it?s surface for performing/DJ?ing, it does make me wonder why even make the effort?

Live lets you do A LOT of stuff. just now i was trying to play clips one after another without using the Arrangement area, which is what you would expect from someone using the program to perform [u]live[/u]... maybe it's my financially challenged hardware, but whatever i do "on the fly" is often "damaged" in the process, and i end up with random crackles and noises, forced to re-record certain parts or stop playback completely to match the beats of a sample to a track...

when i saw Sasha at Crobar last Friday, i wouldn't say he was constantly creating music. i'm not saying he couldn't do so, but i bet if you asked him to play a certain track, that he owned but didn't "prepare" it for the mix - he wouldn't risk adding it while the show was underway. it was pretty much impossible to see the screen of his Mac, but it seemed to me he was mostly monitoring the progress of the mix, rarely interfering... or not at all.

Yeah, I agree about sasha this past week, but last month he was tweaking stuff constantly, I think again it was a Zabiela night...

[quote=th33f]Live lets you do A LOT of stuff. just now i was trying to play clips one after another without using the Arrangement area, which is what you would expect from someone using the program to perform [u]live[/u]... maybe it's my financially challenged hardware, but whatever i do "on the fly" is often "damaged" in the process, and i end up with random crackles and noises, forced to re-record certain parts or stop playback completely to match the beats of a sample to a track...

when i saw Sasha at Crobar last Friday, i wouldn't say he was constantly creating music. i'm not saying he couldn't do so, but i bet if you asked him to play a certain track, that he owned but didn't "prepare" it for the mix - he wouldn't risk adding it while the show was underway. it was pretty much impossible to see the screen of his Mac, but it seemed to me he was mostly monitoring the progress of the mix, rarely interfering... or not at all.[/quote]

For a live performance, it?s better to use the "Session View" (tho one that looks like a spreadsheet). "Arrangement View" is for traditional left-to-right composing.

Also, as long as a track/loop is properly "warp-marked", you can drop it anytime in a mix, and it will be in tempo and beat-matched.

This technical stuff is not the point, however...there?s nights where you see a traditional DJ putting more into the mix than just making sure the beats match. There?s other nights when the same DJ will not do much else. But playing a pre-recorded set...that?s just wrong...

Re: When Ableton isn't live...

I saw D&G play in KC ... did the exact same thing. I was up checking out the new dj booth at the club and saw them playing... had a drink and realized they wern't doing a damn thing. They mostly just hung out and talked and schmoozed all night..

and yes they put on headphones and danced around.

decent tracks... not my flav but whatever.

Wrong IMO.

DJ's should be good enough to pick up the vibe from the crowd and ajust the sets accordingly. Maybe i'm just old fashioned,.